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Thread: Pointing a firearm
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13-03-2022, 14:09 #21
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Re: Pointing a firearm
I pointed and shot a warning shot at some street kids when they approached me with knives, pipes and bricks. Still ended up having to flee. I arrived at SAPS and the cop asked if I have a firearm on me and then proceeded to call over the radio that mad man just ran in to the office, pulled a gun and shouted he was going to kill everyone.
I walked out and lit a cigarette before two cops walked by and struck up a conv. If they hadn't the cops probably would not have ran guns out past me that day. Things would have ended differently for me.
After thousands in legal fees, 2 sleepless shitless nights in jail, the shakedown by cons, years of stress, smearing in 2 papers, all my guns going in and coming back 'different' I think a quick phone sync and 50 bucks insurance is better.
We have discussed the legalities of using a firearm to affect an arrest and as far as I can remember it is too much of a risk. Not so much from the use but the legality. And I know cops get away with it every day but ja. Hou jouself maar eerder nedering. Jy wil nie daai ou wees wat die systeem toets. Glo my hy raak kakker by die dag. Jou ervaring gaan even meer colourful as ons sin wees.
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13-03-2022, 16:14 #22
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13-03-2022, 16:31 #23
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13-03-2022, 19:51 #24
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Making a blanket statement "You cannot defend against property" is just plain wrong. If I walk up to you as you get out of your car, grab your keys and start getting into your car it is totally within your right to stop me from taking your car. Whether your actions in stopping me will be deemed justified depends on the level of force needed to stop me based on what was reasonable. If I escalate the fight to where a reasonable man would consider his life being in danger you have all the right to use your firearm.
The courts will evaluate your actions to determine if it was reasonable and not excessive based on the facts.
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13-03-2022, 19:51 #25
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Re: Pointing a firearm
Do you have a Competency certificate? If you do the trainer should really be investigated for letting you pass.
You can only point a firearm if your life or someone else's life is in danger or imminent danger. Pointing your firearm at someone who steals a phone is going to get you arrested. As your life and no one else's life is in any danger.
Pointing the firearm would be seriously over the amount of force in this situation.
Pointing your firearm is showing intent to use. Meaning you will be punished very close to firing it as well if it was done in situation like this.
If youve done competency. Please go do refresher course.
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13-03-2022, 19:57 #26
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Re: Pointing a firearm
None. There is no reson. You draw to stop the life threatening situation that is affecting you or another human being that you feel you are willing to take that risk for.
Naturally, if you draw, fire. Because you do not draw if you are not going to fire.
Sent from my BV9900E using Tapatalk
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13-03-2022, 20:07 #27
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Re: Pointing a firearm
Are you people for real?? Did you not read my previous post?
"Pointing of firearm
[37] S V SAM
1980 (4) SA 289
Having parked his car in a street in Hillbrow, Johannesburg, the complainant opened his car, took out certain blankets, which were in his car, and put them into another car which belonged to his employer.
The appellant, a cafe-owner, saw what he was doing and thought that he was committing theft.
He then pointed a firearm at the complainant and held him up until the police arrived.
It then appeared that the appellant had made a mistake since the complainant had not committed any theft: he had removed blankets from the one car to the other with the consent of the owner of the blankets.
On the strength of these facts the appellant was charged in a magistrate's court with contravention of Section 39(1) of the Arms and Ammunition Act 75 of 1969, which made it an offence to point a firearm intentionally at somebody else.
The magistrates convicted him of this offence.
He then appealed to a provincial division against his conviction.
Finding:
In his findings, Justice Myburgh concluded that the appellant believed that he caught a thief red handed and did not have any intention to commit a crime by pointing a firearm at another person.
Appeal was upheld."
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13-03-2022, 20:18 #28
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Re: Pointing a firearm
One does not "do competency" ...one completes proficiency training and then one is found competent (i.e. "fit and proper to possess") by SAPS...
"19. The Use of Firearms
19.1 Concurrent with the principle of minimum force, the following question arises: when, under what conditions and in which manner may a firearm be fired.
19.2 Every situation has unique circumstances and the circumstances play a major part when determining whether the use of firearm constituted minimum force or not. Therefore it cannot be stated beforehand whether a firearm may be used in a specific situation or not. At the most, basic principles can be laid down for deciding whether or not to shoot, or not.
19.3 The golden rule is still minimum force. In every situation there must be determined whether there is no alternative than to open fire.
19.4 It is important that there must be a balance between the offence committed and the amount of force used.
19.5 Factors that must be taken into account:
19.5.1 When a person resists arrest, he/she should be overpowered physically instead of being shot.
19.5.2 A person who resists arrest should be let go without being fired upon if there is a big chance that he/she will be traced later.
19.5.3 The safety or desirability of firing warning shots. (However, the firing warning shots in urban areas are not recommended.
19.5.4 In most circumstances it is safer and more desirable to wound a person rather than giving a fatal shot.
19.5.5 The seriousness of the legal principle that must be served in relation to the life and physical integrity of the person who must be arrested.
19.6 The courts have decided it is legal to shoot a person in the following circumstances, subject to the principle of minimum force:
19.6.1 To protect lives:
19.6.1.1 The attack or threat must be aimed at a person (no matter who it is), in which case the use of a firearm is justified if there is no other reasonable way in which he/she can ward off the threat or the attack.
19.6.1.2 You may use a firearm only if the attack is an immediate threat or started already, i.e. the attack must be more than just a possibility.
19.6.1.3 You may not use more force than is necessary to halt the attack. If more force is used, the principle of minimum force is violated and the person defending becomes the attacker.
19.6.1.4 The force used to ward off the attack may be directed at the attacker (assailant) only.
19.6.1.5 On 21 May 2002 the Constitutional Courts delivered a judgement in the case of S v Walter (CCT 28/01). The judgement concerned the constitutionality of section 49 (2) of the Criminal Procedure Act, 1977 (Act no 51 of 1977). In its judgement the Constitutional Court declared section 49 (2) of the Criminal Procedure Act, 1977 unconstitutional. The court also ruled that this section does not apply to actions carried out before 21 May 2002.
Section 49 determined that when an offender or suspect of a schedule 1 offence could be killed with impunity to prevent his/her escape. However, the law as it stands determined the following:
a) Shooting a suspect to make an arrest permissible in limited cases. Besides the cases indicated in paragraph 19.6.1.4. and 19.6.1.5. above, the person who is authorised to make the arrest (in terms of section 40 and 42 of the Criminal Procedure Act) may shoot a suspect under the following circumstances:
If the suspect poses a threat to the person making the arrest or other persons; or
If the suspect on reasonable grounds of having committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious bodily harm and there is no other reasonable means of carrying out the arrest, whether at that time or later.
b) When an arrest is called for, force may be used only if it is necessary to carry out the arrest. If the use of force is necessary, only the least degree of force reasonably necessary to carry out the arrest may be used. In deciding what degree of force is both reasonable and necessary, all circumstances must be taken into account, including the threat of violence the suspect poses to the person making the arrest or the other persons, and the nature and circumstances of the offence the suspect is suspected of having committed; the degree of force must be proportional in all these circumstances.
Shooting a suspect solely in order to carry out an arrest is permitted in very limited circumstances. Under no circumstance may a person who tried to effect an arrest may shoot to kill the suspect in order to halt the escape (that is, the person who tried to effect an arrest shoot to kill the suspect in the legs, for instance). These limitations in no way detract from the rights a person who attempts to carry out an arrest to kill a suspect in self-defence or in defence of any other person."
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13-03-2022, 20:22 #29
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Re: Pointing a firearm
OK let me make one last comment to this thread.
@FFourie,
you are being very "technical" and vague in your scenario again, if this BG is UNARMED and he grabs your keys, gets into your vehicle and is about to drive off, you still CANNOT threatening him with your firearm as he is NOT a threat to you nor is he commencing an attack upon you. Sure I suppose, you can try and stop him by less leathal means. Unfortunately I don't see this scenario ever playing out in sunny South Africa, 99% of the time, if they do come for your vehicle it will either be a high jacking or a ambush at your driveway with multiple armed suspects.
@DDB,
Your scenario is also a complete conundrum, if unarmed BG grabs your phone from your grasp or from your vehicle etc, by the time you react to that, that BG is at least 15 to 20 meters away from you, his not going to care or pay attention what you scream at him, because he just wants to put as much distance between you and him.
So even if you draw your firearm immediately after he grabs it, his now running away from you with his back towards you, and at least 10 to 15 meters away from you, I don't see how drawing your firearm, will assist you in this scenario. Because the BG cannot see you any longer, so he would be totally unaware that you've drawn your firearm.
Anyways, that's how I see it playing out, and yes that scenario do happen often.
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13-03-2022, 20:30 #30
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