Red dots and all

[Bundu Ric]

Are you suggesting that a new shooter should learn to shoot with a red dot rather than irons?

Why should they not?

[oafpatroll]

Why should they not?

IMO, its because they would have missed some key fundamentals by learning on an easier sighting system that smooths over the shortcomings inherent in irons. No problem if they will only ever use a gun for gaming but they could come up short if the need arose to use a gun in an SD situation where the dot is defective, damaged or missing from a pickup. No doubt, at the top end of the gear spectrum failures are rare but I've seen enough people fucking about with dots at matches to know that they are not universally so.

[oafpatroll]

I'm saying red dots are easier to learn for new shooters. I'm not telling anyone what to do.

Roger.

[Cbotha15]

IMO, its because they would have missed some key fundamentals by learning on an easier sighting system that smooths over the shortcomings inherent in irons. No problem if they will only ever use a gun for gaming but they could come up short if the need arose to use a gun in an SD situation where the dot is defective, damaged or missing from a pickup. No doubt, at the top end of the gear spectrum failures are rare but I've seen enough people fucking about with dots at matches to know that they are not universally so.

what fundamentals would those be?

[oafpatroll]

what fundamentals would those be?

Sight picture and front sight focus primarily, i.e. the things that having a red dot does away with due to the aiming point and target being in one place on a 'screen'. With irons you have to solve the problem of having three things to tame, i.e. rear sight, front sight and target POA. Learning on a red dot won't teach you that

[Cbotha15]

Sight picture and front sight focus primarily, i.e. the things that having a red dot does away with due to the aiming point and target being in one place on a 'screen'. With irons you have to solve the problem of having three things to tame, i.e. rear sight, front sight and target POA. Learning on a red dot won't teach you that

They are different sighting systems. That is like saying you should learn how to fly a airplane because it won't teach you anything about driving a car.

[Cbotha15]

Red dots are less forgiving of a sloppy presentation. They demand better fundamentals from a shooter in terms of indexing the gun on the target. If you have mastered that skill it can easily be slightly modified and adapted to getting a solid index with a iron sighted gun.

[oafpatroll]

They are different sighting systems. That is like saying you should learn how to fly a airplane because it won't teach you anything about driving a car.

That strikes me as a silly analogy and it doesn't reflect what I'm saying at all. Planes and cars are fundamentally different machines designed to do fundamentally different things and if there's any overlap between them it's related to what happens when planes are on the ground. Learning to operate either will teach you little if anything useful about the other.

Handguns, with or without dots, launch bullets and remain handguns in either state. The way that you set the launcher up (i.e. aim) to impact the target differs between iron and dot. Everything else stays the same. If you don't learn one of the methods you will necessarily be less competent in its application should the need arise to employ it. That seems like a pretty uncontentious view to me.

[Cbotha15]

That strikes me as a silly analogy and it doesn't reflect what I'm saying at all. Planes and cars are fundamentally different machines designed to do fundamentally different things and if there's any overlap between them it's related to what happens when planes are on the ground. Learning to operate either will teach you little if anything useful about the other.

Handguns, with or without dots, launch bullets and remain handguns in either state. The way that you set the launcher up (i.e. aim) to impact the target differs between iron and dot. Everything else stays the same. If you don't learn one of the methods you will necessarily be less competent in its application should the need arise to employ it. That seems like a pretty uncontentious view to me.

My analogy was just as silly as your example of not using front sight focus to aim a red dot. Front sight focus is not a "fundamental" Sight picture is the fundamental. Sight picture with a red dot and sight picture with iron sights are different things. You cannot compare them directly like that. If you could that would mean that I can say something silly like shooting irons sights are bad because they don't teach you the fundamentals of shooting a red dot optic which is the exact reverse of what you are saying.

[DS]

IMO, its because they would have missed some key fundamentals by learning on an easier sighting system that smooths over the shortcomings inherent in irons. No problem if they will only ever use a gun for gaming but they could come up short if the need arose to use a gun in an SD situation where the dot is defective, damaged or missing from a pickup. No doubt, at the top end of the gear spectrum failures are rare but I've seen enough people fucking about with dots at matches to know that they are not universally so.

There are things much more difficult to learn in shooting a handgun well. Sights are the least of the difficulties imo.

Learning not to move the gun when breaking a shot when you have a sight picture is the bane of many a shooter and having a RDS or Irons on the gun is not going to make a difference in the basics of shooting well.