243 vs 6.5Creedmoor

[Ds J]

there's probably part of the problem...
and then one has to trust that all the shots really did hit whete he says it did...

The shooter is capable and provided photos of the shots.

[A-R]

You can’t seriously advocate a .222 or .223 as a hunting rifle for youths.

Have you considered a 6.5 Grendell?

What about a 7.62 × 39? How good is it as a hunting caliber?

This ^^^ For kids the intermediate cartridges make a lot of sense. And no, you don't need to teach them to hunt on Gnu and Buffalo, they can very well start with a Grey Duiker and Impala ewe.

My choice was a 223 with 1:8" twist shooting 80gn jacketed or 60gn mono-copper bullets. Penetration is excellent and recoil very mild. It is also relatively cheap to feed and barrel life is most decent.

I have no experience with the 6,5 Grendel, but with the right bullet and load there is no reason for it to not perform.

Same would go for the 7,62x39 and 300BLK calibers. These are slower, so range may be limited, which is not a bad thing for a beginner hunter.

There are some more intermediate calibers that may be useful, like 6mmARC or 6BR, but they are not readily available in affordable factory rifles yet. That would make them more expensive to acquire and feed, thus less attractive to me.

Barrel life on a 243 is in the region of 1500 - 2000 rounds, depending mostly on the bullet used. It is a flat shooter, so not really suited for the moderate distances we want to train beginners on, well that's what we do here in the Bushveld anyway. The people who hunt the wide open plains of the Freestate seem to do things differently.

The 6,5 Vegan should give a barrel life of between 3000 and 4000 rounds, again depending mostly on the bullet used. For "normal" hunting out to around 250m or so, I would use one of the heavier bullets like the round-nosed 156gn types. This should penetrate better than most. Recoil is a little less than from a 308, but not so much that it would make me use it for that reason alone. Same goes for all the other medium 6,5 calibers like 260Rem and 6,5x55 etc.

If you do choose to go the 223 route, the rifle can always revert to a varminter role when the youngsters have "outgrown" it and prefer the larger calibers to hunt larger game.

[Wesley]

Explain your rationale behind 223 vs Grendel?

Grendel delivers more energy on target than a 223 ever will. You can shoot them with fairly high BC bullets and I don't understand how a 223 going around 3000fps with a lighter bullet, is that much less effective than a Grendel going about 2600fps?

This is based on my experience using both. The numbers quoted on the 6.5 Grendel are optimistic. I had accurate node’s at 2230fps shooting 107gr bullets and 2280fps shooting 100gr bullets.

A 70gr .223 bullet fired at 2800fps outperforms a 100gr 6.5mm bullet at 2280fps in terms of energy delivered on target with sectional densities nearly identical.

[Stevin]

This is based on my experience using both. The numbers quoted on the 6.5 Grendel are optimistic. I had accurate node’s at 2230fps shooting 107gr bullets and 2280fps shooting 100gr bullets.

A 70gr .223 bullet fired at 2800fps outperforms a 100gr 6.5mm bullet at 2280fps in terms of energy delivered on target with sectional densities nearly identical.

I'll disagree on the optimism of my Grendel loads. Just because in a 6mm ARC I'm getting a 108gr out to 2750fps.

With an almost identical case volume and bullet weight similar velocities should be achievable.

What powder were you using?

[Skaaphaas]

What are the legalities of hunting with .223? I think most province’s regulations won’t allow for this.

As to the Blackout… I have one. The trajectory is a mess. If you don’t have a range finder it’s difficult to make the shot. It’s one thing talking about shot placement and another thing entirely to make it work in practice.

[Wesley]

I'll disagree on the optimism of my Grendel loads. Just because in a 6mm ARC I'm getting a 108gr out to 2750fps.

With an almost identical case volume and bullet weight similar velocities should be achievable.

What powder were you using?

I think the 6ARC will be far superior to the 6.5 Grendel.

26.6gr of S335.

S321 will send it a bit faster, couldn’t get same groups though.

[TStone]

What are the legalities of hunting with .223? I think most province’s regulations won’t allow for this.

.22 Center fire rifles are legal for springbok and mountain reedbuck in the Fee State, not sure about other provinces.
I used to own a Krico .222 rem with an 18" barrel and shortened stock that I used specifically when guiding kids on their first hunt. It was surprisingly effective on smaller antelope out to 200m.

[Koebelwagen]

One thing to keep in mind. Regardless of the cartridge, the bullet still needs to impact the vital areas, be that heart/ lung or CNS i.e. neck/ brain. A poorly placed round from any cartridge still results in wounded/ lost animals. Of all my rifles, I learnt this lesson the hard way with non other than the .300 Win Mag because, you know, magic wand.

With this in mind the .223 is a good cartridge if you keep to shooting lesser sized animals up to about impala. It shoots flat, has very little recoil and at least in my rifle's case it is very accurate. Many, many impala and a couple of springbok have succumbed to the 53gr Barnes TSX bullets I use, whether that be heart/ lung, neck or head shots and touch wood, I have never wounded anything using this rifle. Have not recovered a bullet as yet, all went straight through.

Bonus on the .223 is not only very low recoil but also cost of practice ammo, at less than R10 per round for reloaders you can put a lot more time in on the range using a rifle that makes proper rifle sounds. For youngsters learning to shoot/ hunt the .223 makes a lot of sense; it doesn't hurt them so they will not flinch, it doesn't ruin the parent's bank account and they are mostly built on mini-actions making them compact and easy to fit to smaller people. I would rather have a youngster hunt with a rifle he/ she is confident and competent in shooting than one that he/ she is scared of. Later in life, the youngster can relegate the .223 to varminting duties if he/ she wishes but I guarantee it will always be a favourite.

[shark_za]

The .243 was always the "kids and womens" caliber but then people tried to take them into the bushveld and had issues shooting horrible bullets at crazy speeds.
It works lovely on the plains going for Springbok and Blesbok at reasonable ranges but at 100m in the bush, bullets can fail.
The first "solution" was the 6x45, the .223 case shooting the same bullet as the .243 but at a reasonable speed of 2300fps, this worked really well and there are no complains on effectivness. PMP even made ammo for a while, some guys love those little rifles.
Then the 2020's arrive.
The 6.5 Grendel is the PERFECT light bushveld rifle for small to medium game, say Kudu cows and down.
A 120gr Rhino at 2300fps will penetrate right through to the other side skin at most angles. (It will hit going over 2000fps)
Load a 100gr Partition into the Grendel and you will be fine on Karoo game out to say 200m. Plenty of shock and good penetration.

One of the worst things to happen is companies adding the word "Hunting" to bullets like Berger and Ballistic Tips. Keep those on the target range, shoot real bullets that work.

6 ARC, too fast, slightly heavier bullets dont make it much better at hunting ranges.
6.5 Creed, works just like my 6.5x55 so its lovely, but near to the .308 to be the same thing.

7.62x39 has the issue of bullet availability, there are not so many good .311 bullets out there. 300BLK is a good option, but the light bullets in .264 make me say Grendel all the way.

[Stevin]

I think the 6ARC will be far superior to the 6.5 Grendel.

26.6gr of S335.

S321 will send it a bit faster, couldn’t get same groups though.

I believe your issue is the chosen propellant.

Lever Evolution is best in terms of speed and accuracy, while CFE223 is maybe 20fps behind but for some reason I couldn't get the same accuracy even though many claim hey are the same powder one just has some copper additive or something.