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  1. #11
    Moderator ikor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competition VS Defensive shooting

    Thanks.

    See Swattie and the AMOK! guys...they keep it real and I think you will be beyond happy at what you will learn from them. Even if you have personal experience, it is always good to get back in the pool and swim with the other fish again...gives you a new and different perspective.

    Stay Safe!
    Run Fast, Bite Hard!

  2. #12

    Default Re: Competition VS Defensive shooting

    Correct in any confrontation the golden rule is to shoot back as soon as possible in order to get the attacker/s head down or take cover.

    However this mostly applies to a military attack where you have your firearm in your hand and you in fact empty half of your first mag to get the enemy to take cover but at the same time apply the Move, Down, Crawl, observe, and lastly Sights Fire principle 5 GOLDEN RULES OF A SOLDIER.

    This is especially appropriate to unconventional warefare practiced in bush such as the SA Bush War where you tend to have a lot of cover.

    Remember that in most civilian gun fights less than 5 shots are fired.

    The chance to retaliating effectively without getting injured when you are taken by surprise is very slim and a lot of luck is needed and only Rambo can cope with these situations without failure.

    I sure love to see how fast the IPSC chaps can shoot with a production gun however when you talk to them you will find out that the gun is tweaked within the limits of the rules.

    If you consider the new CZ pistols that are IPSC approved, are in fact target guns as they shoot unbelievable groups for a so called standard production gun.

    They are in fact styled on the Sig P210 principle plus Mr Browning famous lock up system plus good ergonomics, trigger and mag capacity but more expensive than a standard Sig Sauer 226.

    At the end of the day a person adapts to your sport as the PPC chaps cannot compete at the same level in IPSC as the IPSC chaps do but it is also true vise Visa as I have first hand knowledge of this.













  3. #13
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    Default Re: Competition VS Defensive shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by wesson357

    Remember that in most civilian gun fights less than 5 shots are fired.

    The chance to retaliating effectively without getting injured when you are taken by surprise is very slim and a lot of luck is needed and only Rambo can cope with these situations without failure.
    What do you base that first statement on?

    As to the second, to my mind that is why we carry guns. If we knew when trouble was coming we wouldn't need to carry guns we would just go elsewhere that day. Also getting injured is better than getting dead.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Competition VS Defensive shooting

    pcrn pcrn

    Wesson357, you will do well taking advice from members of this forum ,who have been caught in unpleasant circumstances and have fought their way out.
    "Guns are just tools, the way they're used reflects the society they're apart of, if you don't like guns, blame it on society" ~Chris Kyle

  5. #15
    Moderator ikor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competition VS Defensive shooting

    wesson357;

    You do realize that the thrust of the article is that any sort of competition...be that Bullseye, PPC, IPSC or IDPA, etc...will build bad habits when it comes to real life self defense if you do too much of it to the exclusion of other, real world based defensive classes / tactics / shooting...right?

    I have no idea what you mean by the term 'Rambo'. It may mean one thing to me and another to you, and you have not defined your meaning yet. Re-read Geoff's comment above. I think he has hit the nail on the head. It can all be beneficial, but too much time spent on any single thing can dilute the other skills that may be needed to save your life. Speed erodes accuracy...accuracy erodes speed, etc.

    Out of all the guys I know and have been in tight places with, the one I would kick in the front door to Hell itself with is a retired Army SF Sgt. Maj. whose last combat mission was clearing caves in Afghanistan. He was very, very good at it, and I doubt he could win a trophy in any organized competition today. He is, however, still alive and relatively unharmed.
    Run Fast, Bite Hard!

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Competition VS Defensive shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by wesson357

    Remember that in most civilian gun fights less than 5 shots are fired.

    The chance to retaliating effectively without getting injured when you are taken by surprise is very slim and a lot of luck is needed and only Rambo can cope with these situations without failure.
    Totally agree BigT hpy180
    I have encountered numerous civilian shootings where more than one 15rnd magazine were emptied out on the BG's and also instances where only one shot were fired. To state that in most gunfights less than five shots are fired is totally BS.
    At statement 2, all I can say is: Amateurs train till they get it right, professionals train till they cant get it wrong. So no its not only Rambo that can cope with such a situation, most professionals will be able to turn the surprise into their favour.
    This is where the good old saying of "Failure to plan is planning to fail" comes into play.
    You go figure it out by yourself Wesson357 or if you can't, ask a professional to explain it to you.

    O by the way ikor, best article I've read in a long time! Thanx. happy0065





  7. #17
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    Default Re: Competition VS Defensive shooting

    For long time members of this forum this debate has been done, done some more, done again and then just for shits and giggles done again!

    here is my opinion based on my experience.

    Training, the for real deal, training how to FIGHT your gun, knife, brain hand whatever will teach you how the concept works and will teach you how to practice! no one is born the ultimate warrior (except maybe Thorkind!, please note no sarcasm here! trust me the man is the exception that proves the rule!) anyhow training will teach you the principles, movements, what works what doesnt how the mind set should be. It is then up to you to perpetuate the practice The practice part is partially the IDPA, IPSC etc etc! The caveat is the games element. Again I have met very few people who can throw that mental switch between competition and real life the danger is of course internalizing the sporting habits which when faced with a for real brown stuff vs blade situation the unconcious adoption of the game actually interferes with their OODA loop. If you want to learn how to master that switch between the two talk to Thorkind, Khumba or SSP they have been the only people I have met in the sporting environments whose brains are ordered enough to strictly compartmentalize the gaming aspect away from reality!

    I have actually been in a shooting when my cover man a long time sport shooter who was meant to apply trigger pressure froze, at a particuliarly heated debrief he admitted to waiting for go command, he left our unit shortly afterwards, that is indeed the kicker, in the sporting codes we train our minds for a set and somewhat familiar input, once we dont have that stimulus we then have to play catch up on the OODA loop this is excarbated if the sport is our only teaching or indeed practice medium! This is one of the major problems I have with current SAPS training is that so much emphasis is placed on square range work and so little on dynamic training it places the trainee at a disadvantage in reality.

    Yes you do need to train your body to react as instinctively as possible but you need to do this in the correct way first!

    So does the sporting codes have a role in the tactical toolbox, yes it does it makes for excellent practice, it is not what I would reccomend for your ground level training nor is it usefull if you allow the games aspect to creep in! After all how many IDPA teams do you see taking the trip down route Irish everyday or running and gunning in the Shar-i-now in Kabul?

    So here is the punchline, if you want to explore the difference and I really really suggest you should, go on the Gunfight Fundamentals course with SWATG see the difference for yourself and then go and apply the actual principles behind both of these sporting codes!
    I am studying an awesome brand of leg fighting which was inspired by dung beetles and I think my brand of Kraft Manure is superior to all other styles ever invented. Furthermore I challenge all other manurists to a rolling contest where we shall establish whose manure ball is the biggest! I shall call it Honest Kraft Manure and declare it superior to all other brands of manure and will tell you that I have claimed the lineage directly to Imshi the great Dragon Kru Master Beetler who invented manuring, by gathering all manure from different animals together and making it work as the worlds most effective fertilizer. I proved myself by being members of not one but three super elite special gardening departments who were responsible for spreading manure to combat weed infestations!

  8. #18
    User Paul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competition VS Defensive shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by ABHM
    If you want to learn how to master that switch between the two talk to Thorkind, Khumba or SSP they have been the only people I have met in the sporting environments whose brains are ordered enough to strictly compartmentalize the gaming aspect away from reality!
    Bryan, this is on the same track as my previous comments re 'secretors' vs 'non-secretors' of adrenaline. The differentiation in the brain compartmentalisation is (to my mind and logic) related directly to the whole irritating effect of adrenaline secretion during stress situations.

    I believe every one of us is arranged somewhere on a continuum of secretion. Some folk will suffer from a HUGE adrenaline dump that will render them almost incapable of any movement/thought at all. On the other end of the spectrum there are folk who will stay so icy cool even under the most extreme stress that their heartbeat doesn't even tick upwards. We are all arrayed somewhere between these two.

    I would think that the non-secretors who don't suffer from the 'fog of battle' are quite capable of continuously self-analysing a developing situation and working out ideal solutions on the fly. On the other hand you will find folk who must constantly drill themselves into situations so they act entirely like automatons without any conscious thought. The first are flexible and adaptable, the second are not.

    I'll try to illustrate with some personal examples: Over the weekend a few of us shot the IDPA clubshoots at CDPC and at Witbank. At CDPC during one stage I knew the mag in my gun was empty (I round-count unconsciously, also I've been shooting the same gun for 25 years so I can feel when the mag is empty), but was in the middle of a movement, nonetheless I automatically drew a new mag, but stopped myself from ejecting the empty mag from the gun and held the new mag in my supporting hand on the gun until I was slide-back and could reload without incurring a PE. At Witbank I almost incurred a PE after a reload behind a drum by automatically locking my supporting hand onto the gun when the CoF specified strong hand unsupported, but remembered the instruction and released the supporting hand before I fired the shot. Later, on another stage, I completed a string and did a speed reload instead of a reload with retention, realised what I had done, looked over my shoulder at the SO, bent down and retrieved the ejected mag and retained it in my pocket and completed the second string.

    Were I running on pure muscle memory and adrenaline I would never be able to correct myself in these circumstances. I have one of the most chaotically 'ordered' brains imaginable, but I can (normally) think on my feet. And, yes, I do believe anyone can 'master the switch' as you put it.

    The more you fly by the seat of your pants, the more confident you become of making the right decision.

    "Always remember to pillage before you burn"
    Unknown Barbarian

  9. #19
    Member abhm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competition VS Defensive shooting

    Paul
    I disagree with you with regards the secretors v non secretors aspect! I dont believe any person (except Thorkind ;D) is born with that ability I believe that such abilities are developed through training, both conventional and mind set preperation, yes there are ways to enhance that training through various means, NLP, incentivized knowledge exposure which ever systems works best for the individuals concerned. now with regards those people mentioned I believe that for Khumba and SSP it is the product of well ordered minds and high levels of mental preperation coupled with continous and single minded focus ability, for Thorkind well as I said he is the exception that proves the rule! Although he also trains to a huge degree!

    If there was a physiological prerequisite then why would sports performers have to train so hard! I will grant that some are born with body types more suited to a type of activity than others but the aspect still remains that training and practice will provide the enhanced performance. I think that you will find those that fair well in terms of high stress situations are not non secretors but those who have learnt how to deal with the adrenalin that they have, those who have correctly trained there bodies into recognizing the condition and learnt how to cope with it.

    Now yes here is one of the advantages of sports, for sure but the element where it differs from good training is the how your body and mind learns to deal with the scenario and again if you consistently teach your mind and body to respond in a set method it will do so under stress "we fight the way we train, we default to the level of our training etc etc Go and play a pc or play station 1st person shooter, the first time you do it its difficult it then gets progessively easier, why your mind/ body are being taught and refining the responses to best suit the environment, awesome if you are going to be faced with a standard scenario but not so good if you have to continously adapt.

    I consider myself not without experience and I have dedicated a significant portion of my life to training and mental preperation and I will quite happily say that post any incident my aderenal dump has been significant I have however learnt to anticipate that and my mind and body have prepared for that.

    Next time you drive note how you do things almost without thinking in the same order that is the product of your "training" backed up by continous "practice" (repetition) over years

    It goes back to the manage what you can in any situation and the training and preperation is an element that you can manage and should.

    Again I firmly believe in the sports discipline and yes if you acknowledge what they are and the parameters its an awesome !way of practicing your skill set but it is not training
    I am studying an awesome brand of leg fighting which was inspired by dung beetles and I think my brand of Kraft Manure is superior to all other styles ever invented. Furthermore I challenge all other manurists to a rolling contest where we shall establish whose manure ball is the biggest! I shall call it Honest Kraft Manure and declare it superior to all other brands of manure and will tell you that I have claimed the lineage directly to Imshi the great Dragon Kru Master Beetler who invented manuring, by gathering all manure from different animals together and making it work as the worlds most effective fertilizer. I proved myself by being members of not one but three super elite special gardening departments who were responsible for spreading manure to combat weed infestations!

  10. #20
    User Paul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competition VS Defensive shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by ABHM
    Paul
    I disagree with you with regards the secretors v non secretors aspect! I dont believe any person (except Thorkind ;D) is born with that ability
    The SADF did a huge amount of study on this. Most of the info I have is based on conversations I have had with Operators, Operator/Doctors and military psychologists involved at the time. The printed references are almost non-existant as the research was considered too sensitive, but occassional reference is found in reports to the TRC or in work from the CCR such as the following:

    "Basson testified that he was the author of the psychological profile of the Special Forces operator. He said he had been asked to compile the profile when it was found that although medical doctors qualifying as Special Forces members had a 75% pass rate, other recruits had only a 50% pass rate. Asked why this should be, Basson pointed out that it was easier to turn an intelligent being into a strong and hardened military operator than to turn a physically strong person into an intelligent being. Gen Kat Liebenberg then asked him to draw up the psychological profile which was then used by a multi-disciplinary team, including psychologists and social workers, to evaluate candidates for Special Forces selection."

    I am able to contact Dr Basson, but (under the circumstances) he may choose not to respond.
    "Always remember to pillage before you burn"
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