"Fighting Carbine" vs. "Hobby Grade Carbine"- know the facts

[Cato]

As I face the same dilemma as you - no quality US guns easily available- I am very interested as to what
defines quality in a Ar15 system. The following contributions have helped be:

http://forums.scrapyardknives.com/ub...te_id/1#import

"Tier One" vs "Hobby Grade"

* Milspec 7075 Forged .148" Receiver Extension vs Commercial 6061 Extruded .168/.170" Receiver Extension
* Staked vs Non Staked Castle Nuts
* Forged 7075-T6 Lower Receiver vs Cast or Polymer Lower Receivers
* 1/7 Twist Rate vs 1/9 Twist Rate
* 5.56x45mm Chamber vs 223 Remington Chamber
* Chrome Lined Bore & Chamber vs Non Chromed Lined Bore and Chamber
* Certified Mil-B-11595E Barrel Steel vs 4140 or Non-Certified 4150 Barrel Steel
* M4 Feed Ramps vs M16 Feed Ramps
* F-Marked Front Sight Base vs Non F-Marked Front Sight Base
* Tapered FSB Pins vs Straight FSB Pins
* Parkerzing Under FSB vs Bare Steel Under FSB
* Every Barrel Being High-Pressure / Magnetic Particle Inspected vs "Batch" Testing
* Every Bolt Being HP / MPI vs "Batch" Testing
* Shot Peened Bolt vs Not Shot Peened Bolts
* M16 Bolt Carrier vs AR15 Bolt Carrier
* 158 Carpenter Steel Bolt Carriers vs Other Bolt Carrier Materials
* Chrome Lined Bolt Carrier vs Non Chrome Lined Bolt Carrier
* Chrome Lined Gas Key vs Non Chrome Lined Gas Key
* Properly Staked Gas Key vs Improperly Staked Gas Key
* Grade 8 GK Screws vs Anything Else
* Black Bolt Extractor Inserts vs Blue Bolt Extractor Inserts
* Tool Steel Extractors vs MIM Extractors
* H Buffers vs Carbine Buffers

very good summary in video form:



Sadly, most Ar15 systems these days are badly cloned and thrown together without much knowledge of the
technical data package. No carrier key staking, no M4 feed ramps, no chromelined barrel or 5.56 NATO chambers.

[Brendank]

As I face the same dilemma as you - no quality US guns easily available- I am very interested as to what
defines quality in a Ar15 system. The following contributions have helped be:

http://forums.scrapyardknives.com/ub...te_id/1#import





very good summary in video form:



Sadly, most Ar15 systems these days are badly cloned and thrown together without much knowledge of the
technical data package. No carrier key staking, no M4 feed ramps, no chromelined barrel or 5.56 NATO chambers.

Cato
Check out North Eastern Arms AR's, google their website. Quality Canadian made AR's with no ITAR restrictions. May well be a viable option for you. Oh and hertzliche welkommen!

[Cato]

Danke!! Will do!

[spiggs]

and to think I almost bought the colt. It literally ticks all the right boxes

[Wanderin' Zero]

I tell you, I would rather have a Vektor built LM than any of those firearms on the right-hand side of the spectrum.

[spiggs]

I tell you, I would rather have a Vektor built LM than any of those firearms on the right-hand side of the spectrum.

I agree, what also surprised me where the Armalite weapons!

[ady]

I tell you, I would rather have a Vektor built LM than any of those firearms on the right-hand side of the spectrum.

Couldn't agree more, I love my LM and i am a little biased, but a AR platform would be a nice addition to the family.

[Craig]

Sadly, most Ar15 systems these days are badly cloned and thrown together without much knowledge of the
technical data package. No carrier key staking, no M4 feed ramps, no chromelined barrel or 5.56 NATO chambers.

That's largely because nobody other than Colt, FN and the US Military, from my understanding, actually have the official technical data package. Most manufacturers are taking a stab at what's included and building guns accordingly. The TDP goes as far a stating the thickness of the chrome lining in the barrel and the colour of the anodising. Not sure either of these would put me off a rifle, other than the green ones that Colt build. Which, actually means that those weren't 'mil-spec' rifles, in the true sense...

The other problem with a TDP or mil-spec is that it isn't really flexible. If I'm not mistaken, the carpenter steel used in 'mil-spec' bolts was developed in the '70s. Surely in the last 30-40 years they have made better steels? Powder steels instantly come to mind.

While a lot of the points are valid and a number give piece of mind, some are questionable. I happen to have a Colt AR15 that has those 'hobby grade' M16 (huh?) feedramps and I've never had an issue with it. The M16's were surely mil-spec? The um, 'black' extractor insert is the only cool one. Do we think anyone would make one in another colour anymore? Surely it's what it's made of?

With regards to barrels, below are some details. It seems that neither Daniel Defense nor Noveske are in fact mil-spec, but I suspect the oke that put that table together diggs them. They probably quite a bit better than mil-spec, for what it's worth.

What I'm trying to say is that take from that what is important to you and in the context of what you will use the rifle for. Mil-spec can be old or a requirement, but not always a necessity.

I'd happily own a Bushmaster from that list, for what it's worth. They are after all built in the Remington factory, the same factory that was to produce the M4, go figure.

Daniel Defense

* Barrel Material: Ordnance Grade 4150 Steel (CHF - cold hammer forged)
* Barrel Profile: M4 Profile
* Barrel Specs: 16″ MP/HPI Tested, Chrome Lined, 1:7 Twist, Military Specification Heavy Phosphate Coated
* Chamber: 5.56 NATO
* Threads: 1⁄2×28 TPI
* Front Sight Base: F Marked
* Barrel Diameter at Gas Port: .750″
* Made in the USA!

BCM

* M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension (USGI)
* USGI 1/7 Twist Rates
* USGI 5.56 NATO Chambers
* Mil-Spec 11595E - Barrel Steel (CMV)
* Chrome Lined Bore and Chamber
* Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish
* USGI Government Profile Barrels
* HPT (High Pressure Test) Barrels
* MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected) Barrels

Noveske

* M249 Machine Gun barrel steel, with heavy M249 Chrome Lining,(appx. 2 times as thick as an M4 or M16)
* Extended Feed Ramps
* Mil Spec Phosphate finish
* Same weight as M4 barrel, 1 lb, 9 oz, but improved contour for maximum rigidity, no M203 notch
* MP HP tested barrel

[Wanderin' Zero]

I'd happily own a Bushmaster from that list, for what it's worth. They are after all built in the Remington factory, the same factory that was to produce the M4, go figure.

Same factory, not necessarily the same standard. Ikor once made the point that the Colt is built to a standard, not a price point. The latter is definitely the case with many of the civilian market rifles.

[Sweet]

A comment from a totally different perspective: We make a big thing about "properly staked screws" and all that, but staking of screws (that little punch mark - sometimes round, sometimes a line from a chisel ended punch - that stops the screw from coming out) is a rough and "short cut" method of achieving this end.

The first time I saw this was on the firing pin retaining screw of my late-war-effort SMLE. Sure it does the job, but about it being a hallmark of quality I am not so sure.

In my opinion, the keyed and locked screws that you see on the older weapons like the Browning A5, are from an ENGINEERING PERSPECTIVE far superior on every criteria definable (with the possible exception of that wonderful excuse for poor quality "cost").

I would venture that a good gunsmith (yes, we do have a small number of these here in RSA) would be able to do a fine job of "properly staking" any brand of AR's gas key - in about 5 seconds flat, with a hammer and a punch!