http://www.fortisgroup.co.za/

**Paladin** · 11-07-2013, 15:20

Maybe it is blue car syndrome, but yesterday and today the Fortis group are in my face all over the web. This thread feels like Déjà vu, I've been debating the same issues with some people on a crime page that I subscribe to where some one (from Fortis I assume) are pushing the "gas guns" as an viable less lethal alternative to guns.

I've now decided to leave them to Darwin, he will sort them out.

Me? I'll hang onto my hot led spewing gun for when SHTF.

**racingfreak** · 11-07-2013, 15:29

Originally Posted by Akoula

Lack of muzzle flash, kick, pinpoint-able noise

1. You hardly see a flash when used in conjunction with a flashlight, like it should be, to identify an assailant.

2. A handgun in 9mm hardly "kicks", but puts an assailant down rather than pissing him off. Come to think of it, my AR15 doesn't even have recoil to write about

3. It's not called self defense if you're concerned about noise giving away your position as your life is clearly not in immediate and imminent danger. Also, most people are not ninjas and as such make far more noise than they think in a self defense environment.

Lastly, a combination of flash, noise and the kick, as a result of the projectile launched at the assailant, all contributes to inform the BG that he's being shot at and should rather find alternative extracurricular activities to part take in...

**BigT** · 11-07-2013, 15:43

Originally Posted by h0stag3

BigT, why were you shot with a pepper ball? :-P

My personality;)

Honestly though to see what effect it had. It wasn't pleasant but I would never rely on them to stop an determined attacker intent on doing me harm.

**Akoula** · 11-07-2013, 15:48

Originally Posted by racingfreak

1. You hardly see a flash when used in conjunction with a flashlight, like it should be, to identify an assailant.

2. A handgun in 9mm hardly "kicks", but puts an assailant down rather than pissing him off. Come to think of it, my AR15 doesn't even have recoil to write about

3. It's not called self defense if you're concerned about noise giving away your position as your life is clearly not in immediate and imminent danger. Also, most people are not ninjas and as such make far more noise than they think in a self defense environment.

Lastly, a combination of flash, noise and the kick, as a result of the projectile launched at the assailant, all contributes to inform the BG that he's being shot at and should rather find alternative extracurricular activities to part take in...

1. Operating a flashlight often makes you a target and breaks your element of surprise. you would not see a 'flash' when identifying an assailant as you do not shoot before you have done so.

2. You must have strong wrists if a 9mm hardly kicks if you are 'identifying your target with a flashlight' in the other hand. My mention of kick is aimed more towards the average home owner, who might be an elderly person, lady as such. Low kick is a boon for follow up shots. And an AR-15 in South Africa? Very unlikely for the average home owner. Lets compare apples to apples.

3. self defence is preservation of ones self. The means is secondary. I would rather inflict pain on the assailant before making too much noise, as they rarely come alone. surprise is key in many home invasions. Being hit suddenly in the dark without knowing where it is coming from is a fairly decisive method of encouraging them to egress as fast as possible.

Lastly, how does kick translate to the target that he is being fired upon? Flash is not a directional indicator that you , out of the 4 or 5 home invaders are the target, a fright maybe, but maybe not enough to stop the invader from returning a few rounds downrange towards the flash. those that have been in such situations would understand what I mean with this.

A lot of rounds downrange without giving away your position or other details stops them from knowing who,where, how many and can/should adjust their mindset to escaping the flash pan. Shooting is also a last resort if you have no means of escape. It is not worth the risk to go in guns blazing in the first place.

**HoggerNaut** · 11-07-2013, 15:51

**BigT** · 11-07-2013, 15:57

akoula do you have any links to fortis group besides being a customer?

**LukeS** · 11-07-2013, 15:59

where is the popcorn?

**h0stag3** · 11-07-2013, 16:00

Originally Posted by BigT

My personality;)

Honestly though to see what effect it had. It wasn't pleasant but I would never rely on them to stop an determined attacker intent on doing me harm.

You are weird :-P. But we still love you >_<

**Akoula** · 11-07-2013, 16:00

1. Done, sorry, new to this particular forum and slipped my mind while waiting for my account to be given authority to post.
2. Effective at being a self defence tool. If you have been hit with a milspec pepperball, you will find it hard to regain composure within the next few minutes. The reinforced solids are excruciating and the effects last for days.
3. In a civilian setting, a sufficient number of places offering varied kinds of self defence. Each brings their own to the table.
4. Pro's as in opposite of con's. 'Pro's IN using them'.

I started out as sceptical myself. While I agree a firearm is a definite fight stopper, it is not the Alpha and Omega of home defence. there are many times other methods are best suited for certain situations. In today's South Africa, with the law as it currently is being served, the Gas gun solution is a good method in bridging many of the gaps. Again I will not claim it is the only one, but it is one of them and it does it very well. Being in a gunfight is no joke, I'd prefer to have a gun with me when rounds are being delivered in my direction, but if I am unable to or unwilling (as some people are) to carry a firearm, then I best at least have this tool with me.

Note: It is a tool. Like any worker, he has many tools in his toolbox. He also learns to use them effectively.

**BigT** · 11-07-2013, 16:04

Originally Posted by Akoula

1. Done, sorry, new to this particular forum and slipped my mind while waiting for my account to be given authority to post.
2. Effective at being a self defence tool. If you have been hit with a milspec pepperball, you will find it hard to regain composure within the next few minutes. The reinforced solids are excruciating and the effects last for days.
3. In a civilian setting, a sufficient number of places offering varied kinds of self defence. Each brings their own to the table.
4. Pro's as in opposite of con's. 'Pro's IN using them'.

I started out as sceptical myself. While I agree a firearm is a definite fight stopper, it is not the Alpha and Omega of home defence. there are many times other methods are best suited for certain situations. In today's South Africa, with the law as it currently is being served, the Gas gun solution is a good method in bridging many of the gaps. Again I will not claim it is the only one, but it is one of them and it does it very well. Being in a gunfight is no joke, I'd prefer to have a gun with me when rounds are being delivered in my direction, but if I am unable to or unwilling (as some people are) to carry a firearm, then I best at least have this tool with me.

Note: It is a tool. Like any worker, he has many tools in his toolbox. He also learns to use them effectively.

Many people ,including me, have caught actual bullets from actual guns without feeling them at the time. Pain is not a reliable means of stopping a life threatening attack. Why would it be different with these devices.

Please answer my previous question.