Anatomically Correct Targets

[stefanvan]

Putting these targets up on a public range with other people there, would not be a good idea... IMHO

[Dickie]

Putting these targets up on a public range with other people there, would not be a good idea... IMHO

Why not?

[tims]

Putting these targets up on a public range with other people there, would not be a good idea... IMHO

Ill risk it , in between the zombie targets and those no shoot targets where the guy is aggressively holding a lady and pointing a gun back at me :) tims

[tims]

Hi Tims
Whatever makes you to practice more and with bigger concentration is good. But going for the center of mass is the golden standard for a reason. Firstly, the targets usually move (and fast) both in the lateral plane and also they rotate. Secondly you will not have time to really visualize the organs in the usual quick encounter and thirdly, the organs also move inside the body, much more than many people would believe . Finally the position of organs as projected from the outside body contour is different in different body shapes (obese vs tall and thin). NB. The above does not apply to the brain (hint). The best advise: dress your IDPA target in an old T-shirt and practice center of mass shots. The more center hits the better.
Mj

Gold .I sadly am not able to shoot IDPA yet dud to personal reasons .I didnt think of the t shirt thing my thanks there .tims

[tims]

Hi Tims
Whatever makes you to practice more and with bigger concentration is good. But going for the center of mass is the golden standard for a reason. Firstly, the targets usually move (and fast) both in the lateral plane and also they rotate. Secondly you will not have time to really visualize the organs in the usual quick encounter and thirdly, the organs also move inside the body, much more than many people would believe . Finally the position of organs as projected from the outside body contour is different in different body shapes (obese vs tall and thin). NB. The above does not apply to the brain (hint). The best advise: dress your IDPA target in an old T-shirt and practice center of mass shots. The more center hits the better.
Mj

Gold .I sadly am not able to shoot IDPA yet due to personal reasons .I didnt think of the t shirt thing, my thanks there .tims

[tims]

Where are you looking at placing your shots tims? I have seen bullets pass millimeters away from the aorta with the patient completely stable whilst I have seen others bleed to death from a minor tibial fracture. The 3D nature of human injury pattern is very hard to replicate as is the terminal path of the bullet once it enters the body (they follow unpredictable patterns). There are very few injuries that will result in immediate incapacitation. Rather concentrate on center mass with multiple hits in as short a time as possible.

This is speaking from my experience with real life human GSW injuries.

lithium

Thanks Lithium, I appreciate your taking the time to be straight forward with me on this given your experience.Without prying to much :) how has this affected your training ? tims
Hope you guys don'tind my thread drifting .

[A-R]

Shot placement on humans, in a defensive scenario, is something that has been debated (and researched) for many years. The problem is, that those that know, are reluctant to share the info, for obvious reasons.

In WW2, the gerries tought their troops to shoot at the centre of mass, of a standing man. That is, on a frontal view, the place where the belt buckle sits. Our own military "Tango" targets (Fig IIB, IIRC) used the same spot as the centre of the scoring area. The reasoning behind this is, that a hit in the pelvis area, will put the BG down quickly. Apparently a shot there feels much worse than a good kick in the groin. It may (or may not) be lethal, but it is immobilising. (Keep in mind, that a hit in the legs, would be deemed sufficient in a military environment.)

Reports by experienced people, such as Jim Cirillo, tend to support the same POA for defensive handgun shooting. Also Jim and others tell of numerous incidents, where head shots were ineffective. (You have to hit a vital organ, to stop a BG, and not all of them have much between the ears...)

An (experienced) SF acquaintance showed me targets, where the heart, upper spine and lower brain (the section controlling motoric funtion) was marked. That was the "scoring" area. He stated that hits in this area were stoppers. Hits outside (i.e. chest area) were not very effective, when using handguns. Remember that the military usually use FMJ ammo.

If we consider the effect of a rifle bullet on game, of roughly the same size as an average human (like say an 80 kg Impala ram), that is placed slightly too far back (i.e. centre of mass, not vitals) the results are well known. Now hit it in the same place with your favourite EDC gun and ammo. The more you hit it, the faster it runs... (It will expire eventually...)

What I'm trying to say is that, if your handgun bullet doesn't hit the "trip-switch", the BG won't stop in his tracks. Where that exact spot is, will be the topic of some heated debates, for quite some time. But what is readily apparent, is that the whole chest area, may be an easy target, but any shots that miss the major blood vessels and spine, are not very likely to stop your BG.

[lithium]

Thanks Lithium, I appreciate your taking the time to be straight forward with me on this given your experience.Without prying to much :) how has this affected your training ? tims
Hope you guys don'tind my thread drifting .

Sure, no problem tims. My training has shifted to concentrating on center mass shot placement, with some emphasis on speed for multiple consistent hits. Realistically, I think in a stress situation hitting an organ as small as the spinal cord (which is completed encased in bone and has a transverse area of about 1cm2) is not practical. I have a much better chance of hitting the heart or great vessels. For center mass, I define that as a box drawn inward from the midpoint of the clavicles and extending from the sternal notch to the end of the sternum.

Aiming for the brain is also not a good idea IMHO. I have dealt with more than one person shot obliquely with the bullet not entering the cranial vault that contains the brain. There is a lot of skeleton in the face that can deflect bullets too.

The only places that can act as an "off switch" are the brain and spinal cord. Even heart and great vessels will not result in instant hypotension with resultant neurological failure.

All of the above refers to terminal pistol ballistics of course. Higher velocity weapons such as rifles are a different story.. And as I always say - the only things less predictable than bullet paths in humans are the people using them..

lithium

[tims]

Sure, no problem tims. My training has shifted to concentrating on center mass shot placement, with some emphasis on speed for multiple consistent hits. Realistically, I think in a stress situation hitting an organ as small as the spinal cord (which is completed encased in bone and has a transverse area of about 1cm2) is not practical. I have a much better chance of hitting the heart or great vessels. For center mass, I define that as a box drawn inward from the midpoint of the clavicles and extending from the sternal notch to the end of the sternum.

Aiming for the brain is also not a good idea IMHO. I have dealt with more than one person shot obliquely with the bullet not entering the cranial vault that contains the brain. There is a lot of skeleton in the face that can deflect bullets too.

The only places that can act as an "off switch" are the brain and spinal cord. Even heart and great vessels will not result in instant hypotension with resultant neurological failure.

All of the above refers to terminal pistol ballistics of course. Higher velocity weapons such as rifles are a different story.. And as I always say - the only things less predictable than bullet paths in humans are the people using them..

lithium

Awesome post thanks .How about training to shoot the upper chest area (of course nothing is perfect) say from the nipples to the base of the throat? In lay mans terms. I realise this is not as easy as it sounds. Tims

[Meteor]

So are we talking mannequins with organs drawn on?