Newbie IPSC question

**DJ Vier** · 23-08-2013, 13:33

Hi,

I want to start going into 3 gun, and I need a few newbie questions answered.

I have pulled all IPSC rules from the IPSC website , but now have a question on why (as I have been told) you cannot use a 9mm carbine (such for eg as the Taurus CT G2 in 9mm). Here's my reasoning, 9mm is cheaper to feed than a 223, same reloading kit etc etc.

When doing a quick calculation when calculating the power factor I come to the below conclusion:
124 gn x 1300fps / 1000 = 160.

Minimum is 150 for Minor, but.... is the calibre to large for minor and then it would not factor for mayor?
Then:

I have a CZ 75b - stock standard, the above carbine and a semi - auto shotgun (possibly a Remington Versamax, open for other "cheaper" suggestions here) - what class would I shoot in?

Thanks

**bronxlive** · 23-08-2013, 15:42

The ipsc rifle division is not a carbine division. The min caliber is .223 for minor.
There is no provisions for handgun caliber carbines.
Cz75 will put you in production division and standard if you wish. (If it is da/sa)
I believe some clubs will allow you to shoot the carbine in club shoots but it will not count for score though.
The shotgun will be standard division if you dont add quick loaders and or optics too it.

**Craig Gerstner** · 23-08-2013, 15:52

Bronxlive you are wrong, if the carbine makes min. factor of 150 it qualifies. there is no minimum caliber. see 5.1.2 and appendix D of rifle rules.
DJ Vier - with the above combination your best bet would be shoot in Standard in a grand tournament.

**bronxlive** · 23-08-2013, 16:13

I'm sorry. I had a look at the rules and you're right.
I was also told by a few guys thats been shooting ipsc much longer than me that it is not allowed. I think it has more to do with the fact that it is not classified as a rifle but as a carbine. But maybe someone on the forum that is a range officer can tell us more.

**DJ Vier** · 23-08-2013, 16:16

Ok thanks for the feedback guys. I understood it as Craig explains it.

But here is the kicker - this question on the Taurus was posed to the vice chairman of a large club, and he said no.

If I were loading 115gn's no problems - the factor would be just below 149.5 as I have it.

**farmer-el** · 23-08-2013, 16:37

If it is a shoulder fired weapon, and it makes minimum power factor you can use it. You will obviously need to get an endorsement from SAPSA. Just include some "proof" that it will factor. Your arguments re cost etc above are valid, but from a competitiveness point of view it may be an issue if you shoot alot of long range C.OF.'s. I wanted to go nine, but don't regret my AR!

**A-R** · 23-08-2013, 21:14

The 9mm carbine issue has been debated for some time now.

It should be easy to make a 9mm factor 150+ from a carbine length barrel (A few SD rounds can do it from pistol barrels). Thus, it will be competition-legal.

SAPSA will NOT issue an endorsement. (A fellow club member tried just that.) They might have their reasons, but the logic escapes me.

If you do use a 9mm carbine, in a 3-gun (or rifle) event, you should be good for most targets out to about 150m. That means you will have to get "mikes" and "PT's" for the further targets, which can account to about 5-10% of the rifle match. Obviously, you won't be competitive. But IMO, that should be YOUR choice.

As for the divisions your guns might compete in: CZ75 - Production; Rem shotgun (without optics) - Standard; Carbine/SLR (without optics) - Standard. Overall match - Standard. If any one of your guns is modified sufficiently (eg. optical sights), that gun, and the overall match, changes to Open.

**DJ Vier** · 26-08-2013, 11:48

Farmer- el,

Yes the weapon is shoulder fired

Great thanks for the feedback A - R

Then another few questions.

"Mikes" - misses?
"PT's"- shots not taken?
Why would the CZ not be Standard as well or are production and standard the same thing?
Why would SAPSA not issue the endorsement, and that said , why would I need one if I can prove that the weapon does factor?
And what is seen as proof?
How many shots are taken above 150m?

**bronxlive** · 26-08-2013, 12:06

PT = Penalty target. Basically shooting a "good guy" target.
CZ can also be used in Standard division. Production and standard is different
When shooting Bushveld 3gun (3 gun nationals) in Polokwane you will encounter a few shots out past 200 - 220 meters.
Chances of having the license app refused without an endorsement is very very good!

**Psychosis** · 26-08-2013, 12:21

Originally Posted by bronxlive

PT = Penalty target. Basically shooting a "good guy" target.
CZ can also be used in Standard division. Production and standard is different
When shooting Bushveld 3gun (3 gun nationals) in Polokwane you will encounter a few shots out past 200 - 220 meters.
Chances of having the license app refused without an endorsement is very very good!

Penalties can also be given for failing to engage a target at all. Procedural Penalty.

Carries the same penalty weight as a PT (-10 points, per occurance)