Pistol AR's

[47]

Let’s say you have decided that a handgun alone is not going to be sufficient for the Zombie Apocalypse, and you would like to have an AR type rifle in 5.56 with you when TZHTF. We all know that Zombies are highly unpredictable, so you will have to be able to carry the rifle with you virtually everywhere just in case, even for instance when dropping your kid at school, without alarming neither Zombies nor Sheep. The rifle should also be able to handle urban, rural and vehicle situations.

The pistol size AR’s (7 – 7.5”) and NEA PDW's would dimension wise be ideal, especially if you take a look at something like the Eberlestock weapon packs offered by Hailstorm.

Downside it seems is that you lose a lot of velocity in the pistol size AR’s so that the light 5.56 bullets won’t perform quite as it should, and you get a lot more noise and a violent action.

With the standard AR’s, you have the advantage that your bullets should have sufficient velocity to perform as it should, bit less noise, standard parts, etc.

Drawback is the length of the standard AR in this scenario. Carrying it in a bag that can accommodate its length is going to look suspicious.

You can of course take it apart and stow it in a backpack to reduce the signature when required, and just put it back together when a low signature is not that important, which with a bit of commitment might be doable, but to some extent defeats the purpose.

Also, keep in mind that AFAIK the FCA requires that you carry the rifle in a bag that was designed to carry a FA.

What I would like to ask is:
1. If your purpose is SD, to what extent can you offset the loss in velocity and obtain terminal value with heavier bullets in a pistol AR?
2. Would a pistol AR still be considered effective enough in a SD situation?
3. Even though for terminal ballistics the standard AR’s will be better, I suppose a pistol AR will still have more stopping power and accuracy than merely a handgun?
4. It seems to be the happy medium - Will an 11” or 12” AR offer that much advantage over the 7” in the situation as described above?

[prepare2win]

Gabe Suarez recently put out some articles on the subject of AR SBR's and PDW's:

THE M4 PISTOL PDW BALLISTICS, AND AT DISTANCE

That lead image is me. It was taken at a recent High Risk Operator Course here in Prescott, AZ. It shows me hitting a steel IPSC silhouette at 225 yards. If you take a closer look at the weapon, you will notice the conspicuous absence of a stock. It is in fact an M4 Pistol with a 10.5" Barrel. Later that year I used the same "pistol" to hit steels at 300 yards at one of our sniper training sessions. Next month, I plan to put a 4X Browe on it and see how far I can actually hit. I expect to be able to hit accurately past 300 yards. How far? I will let you know.

The point is that a short barrel does not detract from accuracy. To the contrary, marksmen have shown that a shorter barrel is a stiffer barrel and thereby a more accurate rifle can be had. The issue with length is a loss of velocity. That cannot be argued. But how much, and is it a problem.

Here are some interesting numbers.

Two popular training loads, the M855 yields 2639 FPS, and the XM193 yields 2755 FPS out of my 10.5" barrel. These are certainly not what we are limited to and commercial anti-personnel loads would be better choices.

One of the arguements against using the short barrels with .223 is that the loss of velocity will detract from the fragmentation of the bullet. While this is true, even the full length military M4 will only yield fragmentation with the M855/XM193 as far as 75 yards and a maximum of 100 yards. Yet soldiers armed with 14.5" rifles have killed lots of enemy soldiers and terrorists much farther than 100 yards. That should clarify that fragmentation is a bonus effect, but not the deciding factor on effectiveness.

With regards to these M4 Pistol PDWs and their stocked SBR brothers, there is another fact to consider which I suggested earlier. Civilian defenders can choose their own ammo and are not limited to military ammunition. You have options such as Hornady TAP and Corbon Urban Response, to name two that I have on my shelf. As well, you have the ability to select weights of the bullets from 40 grains to 77 grains, each offering interesting advantages. The 40 grain TAP Urban, for example will yield 2989 FPS from a 10.5" barrel, while the 55 grain will yield 2656 FPS. Rounds like these should be excellent choices for the short barreled weapons, thereby giving up little if any ballistic effects.



TACTICS FOR THE M4 PISTOL


The more we work with these, the more we find them workable in environments normally reserved for stocked rifles. Not only does the lack of a stock allow you to use the light and maneuverable M4 pistol easily in CQB by "floating the stock", but also by using the Czech-inspired third point of contact for more precise shots.

And by simply shrugging the shoulder, you get the additional point of contact that allows you take shots at extreme distances. Extreme for a 10" barreled weapon anyway.
Next week I will stretch this weapon out to distances and report back. I have already shot it out to 300 yards...we will see how much farther it will go by using Hornady 75 grain BTHP. I am thinking this may be the ultimate private citizen EDC-PDW.

[ikor]

Most real experts consider the 7-7.5in AR little more than a toy except for the exact situation you envision...as a 'PDW'. But even in such a peculiar situation, you are giving up an awful lot to get that level of compactness. Muzzle blast is terrible, as is flash with some loads. If using standard 55gr Military ammo, your threshold for fragmentation is going to be virtually zero meters. (I can't find velocity figures at the moment, but the 62gr M855 gives an approximate velocity of 2350fps from an 8.3in barrel. Figure you are looking at 'around' 2500fps or so from SA M193 with that 7-7.5in barrel.

You are also more than likely going to want / need some sort of suppressor, or moderator on that little beastie, which is going to add length. Then there is the whole issue of getting the gas ports fitted correctly for your uber short barrel, as well as the buffer and buffer spring. (they tend to be less than stellar in reliability) Next is gonna be a stock, and the standard M4 type really does not add much to overall length if you run it in the first or second position. (yeah, I know how big you are :-)

Now for all that, you have a marginally effective SBR with standard .mil surp ammo. Heavier bullets will increase effectiveness no doubt, but they will do the same with something like a 10.5 in barrel, and you will have a far better overall weapon IMO.

ETA: Gabe is also using a 10.5in barrel, AND he is selling shit...that alone should make you leery of believing everything he says

[Maml]

Correct me if I'm wrong...and I realize this is about AR's...

What about an LM5 type platform with folding stock (oal 615mm)?
Seems it would be beneficial to have the capability of the LM, while still keeping in the SBR/PDW category; but with ability to fold/unfold the stock when necessary.

[spiggs]

Same could then be said for an underfolder AK, very short package

[47]

Thanks for all the replies! You are quite right re. folding stocks etc., but reason why I opted for an AR is mainly because of logistics: you are much less limited to parts availability only from a certain part of the world.

[47]

Now for all that, you have a marginally effective SBR with standard .mil surp ammo. Heavier bullets will increase effectiveness no doubt, but they will do the same with something like a 10.5 in barrel, and you will have a far better overall weapon IMO.

I see Hailstorm also has an Eberlestock that takes an 11" barreled M4.... :-)

[DS]

Imo

the PDW 223 will be gtg at realistic defensive distances for SA scenarios;

a PDW in 7,62x39 or 300BLK would be the better choice - a 9" barreled 300BLK's terminal energy at 100m is equivalent to, or better than, 223/5,56 with a 16" barrel;

a folder like a LM5 is a viable option;

a bullpup with a 16" barrel at the same length that a folded LM5 would be is for me a very viable option as well and it stays the same length where the LM would become "longer" with the stock locked open.

[47]

Khumba, I'm one the same page as you. Only thing that bothers me a bit with the other options are logistics. I have taken a look at the 7.62 x 39 Vz 58's on your site, but not sure about spare part availability etc. A bullpup that is lefthand friendly would be the ultimate solution, as would an AK platform with a folding stock, but again taking into consideration logistics.

When do you get the Bushmaster ACR's? :-)

[DS]

Khumba, I'm one the same page as you. Only thing that bothers me a bit with the other options are logistics. I have taken a look at the 7.62 x 39 Vz 58's on your site, but not sure about spare part availability etc. A bullpup that is lefthand friendly would be the ultimate solution, as would an AK platform with a folding stock, but again taking into consideration logistics.

When do you get the Bushmaster ACR's? :-)

WE have received ACR but they were special order. It is an awesome rifle and excellent quality.

The bullpup is not un-shootable from the left shoulder (contrary to popular belief) but know where to place your cheek not to get brass in the face and in the event that you forget under stress the brass is not going to hurt you (i tried it) but may be distracting.

CSA is good on supplying us with parts like NEA is.

On a side note - I would personally prefer a platform with a non-reciprocating charging lever where I may be required to use it in tight confines like in a vehicle and where it may be required to shoot with close retention to the body.