Ar15 or Lm5?

[Longshot]

Ok I've spoken to the right people about "achieving" the needed status to get my little paws on one of these. Wont be an overnight thing I'm told but "everything good comes to he who waits".

My knowledge about either of these rifles is very limited.

I would like to get the input of guys who owns/shoots/worships these to be able to make an informed decision. I will be using it in the three gun event and to shoot the crap out of anything that cares to move on the farm!

1. Reliability
2. Availibility of parts/spares
3. Bling
4. Affordability
5. Avilability of rifle
6. anything I didnt think of

Thanks

[Craig]

What sport are you going to be using it for, IPSC, IDPA, Pin Shooting, other ?

[DS]

I have both ;D

Do a search on this sub forum for detailed info etc on the AR and on the net for a LOT of AR related info.

Mine are both equally reliable.

Read below with a IMO caveat - I am not an expert but I have used both and I have used the AR quite a lot.

I "like" my AR more than the LM but since I put a Trijicon RMR mini red dot on the LM it is a close second. The LM must be a 5 or 6 though, the 4 is too long and bulky and heavy for my uses. A Colt SP1 rifle with 20" barrel for longer range service rifle shooting will outrun the LM 4.

Parts for both are somewhat of an issue -

AR parts come mainly from the US but they can be had for the most part - the most replaceable parts are not a problem as they are small and fairly cheap. In 4 or so years of shooting the AR I have yet to replace any part due to necessity. High round counts may make a difference to this observation. Excellent quality polymer mags are available currently and will be in future.

LM parts are available locally but they are not as available any more as they were when the rifle was still in production in SA. Mags are more expensive new than the new AR mags and the LM polymer mags are nowhere near as robust as the AR polymers. LM steel mags are damn good to say the least.

Bling wise the AR runs all over the LM . There is no end to what can be done to an AR.

A brand new LM will cost you around R11k - R13k if you can find one and chances of that are getting less and less.

A brand new AR will cost you around R20K min and they are available currently as I understand. And they will be available in future. You may be lucky and find a very good condition Colt SP1 for around R8K - R12K which will be a very good buy but take note it will be a carry handle upper receiver not a flat top. You can still add nice optics on the carry handle model with the right hard ware.

For the shoulder time the AR wins due to lower weight.

For 5m drop robustness the LM win but just do not do it with a polymer mag in the rifle.

The AR is fro me a quicker handling rifle.

Mag changes on the AR is faster than on the LM.

Very Rapid follow up shots- the AR is slightly better there - I can feel that my LM cycles a little bit slower than my AR. That may not be important for what you want to use it for and it's actually only a little difference but discernable and it may be of use for a good sport shooter.

Due to the mode of operation the AR dirties itself more in the receiver than the LM but its easy to clean. The LM's dirt gather in the gas tube and on the piston = just another place compared to the AR. Barrel is easier to clean on the AR imo than on the LM because cleaning can be done from the chamber side on the AR.

Disassemble is easy on both.

The LM is shorter for transport and concealment than the AR and that I like a lot although my AR is quite compact.

If you get a modern flat top AR it is much more versatile iro of Optics choices than the LM.

The barrels on most AR are chrome lined which has benefits iro cleaning and barrel life, LM 's are not chrome lined as far as I know.

It is said that the AR is more accurate than the LM but for CQB, Urban use and 3 gun it's a moot point imo. If you intend to shoot longer distances of say 200m plus the AR will outrun the LM.

I will happily shoot 3 gun, do CQB SD work or urban SD with either.

You will get arguments that AR is not a reliable platform but that is horseshit - read my posts, with references to very knowledgeable users of the platform, on this forum - such arguments are borne by the very early rifles that had ammo problems and maintenance problems as well as some rifles built up from parts by so called AR builders. Any of the top tier AR manufacturer's rifles will outlast you. The AR design is such that there is very little wear on the receiver or bolt carrier and even on the bolt itself.

[ikor]

Having owned several Galils and quite a few ARs, my own choice has been to sell the Galils and keep my ARs. That in no way indicates that I think the Galil / R series rifles are 'bad guns' but rather that I prefer the AR. Today, a genuine Galil will bring a lot more money here than most ARs, but my decision was made back when they were much closer in price.

Reliability is as much a function of an individual rifle, magazines and ammo used as of design, given a good design to start with, but both rifles have proven themselves in wartime conditions many times over. The AR does require maintenance, but those who believe a Kalashnikov will run forever without any will sooner or later find this is not true.

IMO a truer statement would be that the Galil / R series rifles...given good, serviceable mags and good ammo...will be more likely to run for a longer period of time with fewer parts replacements than an AR. Also, if sand, dirt or crap gets into the action, the R is more likely to run than the AR. OTOH, the AR is set up to prevent this to a greater degree than the R. In the states, AR parts are easy to come by and relatively cheap, so replacing things like bolts, extractor springs, etc is not a big deal after every 5000 or so rounds. IN SA that is not yet the case, but 5000rd is a fair amount of shooing, too, and I have seen ARs with 7500+ logged full power rounds still running just fine with zero parts replacements as well.

Parts availability in SA is apparently spotty on the ARs and no one knows what the US State Dept. and the SA government will do in the future. My WAG is that neither is likely to welcome export or import of tons of parts for civilian rifle use any time soon. Several shooters here have indicated that parts are still available for the R / LM series rifles in SA, but with Denel / Vektor not making any new rifles, the increasing popularity of Sports use of these rifles, and some saying that foreign parts are being used in some cases now, I would hazard a guess that The R / LM parts situation may not look so rosy either in a few years...maybe less if import of those foreign parts is stopped.

Bling prize definitely goes to the flat top ARs...this one is not even close.

Currently it seems that the ARs bring more than the LMs but once again, LM prices are definitely on the increase, as are prices for good condition magazines. This gap is IMO going to get much narrower in the future. I will go out on a limb here and predict that by this time next year, LM prices for really nice examples will be up by 20% minimum...we will see if I am wrong in a year.

Pretty obvious that there are probably more LMs for sale in SA than ARs at the moment. Once prices begin to rise more on nice LMs it makes import of ARs all the more inviting despite all the paperwork and hoops to jump through.

Poo poo weight and balance all you like, but if you intend to do a lot of 'upshoulder' work, lighter rifles handle better up to a point, and the ability of the AR to be set up for an individual with longer or shorter arms, wearing body armour or not, etc. is a big plus. One can, of course, negate this if you load too much weight onto the AR, especially at the front, where such weight in the form of lights, lasers, forward grips, etc. is usually placed. You may not see a lot of difference if you shoot from the more classical riflemans stances, but square off to the target so your armour protects you better and start shooting and moving, and the collapsible stock on the AR shows its value. Putting a Galil stock on the LM will also help in this regard but it is not, of course, adjustable.

Here, if given the choice between a free, brand new LM or a top tier AR I would happily choose the AR and never look back. In SA I might well make the same choice but it would be a much closer contest.

[Longshot]

Corne it will be used in IPSC. I am meeting the guys from the Bfn club Saturday afternoon and then I will actually know what is is I'm getting into. I only had a brief conversation with Jaco from IPSC yesterday, so I dont have an idea of the what where how.

[Longshot]

Thanks for the replies guys, it really helped. I can get a YHM M4 from Dave Sheer guns for around R20K and they have a dashprod for R10K. 10K goes a long way if used to bling a rifle, buy die sets, cases etc. etc. Is the difference in price justifiable? I am running through a minefield with this purchase, my wife doesn't see the need for another rifle and I have already bought 3 this year plus scopes and accessories.

Khumba do you stock AR's/Dashprods/Lm's?

[DS]

Thanks for the replies guys, it really helped. I can get a YHM M4 from Dave Sheer guns for around R20K and they have a dashprod for R10K. 10K goes a long way if used to bling a rifle, buy die sets, cases etc. etc. Is the difference in price justifiable? I am running through a minefield with this purchase, my wife doesn't see the need for another rifle and I have already bought 3 this year plus scopes and accessories.

Khumba do you stock AR's/Dashprods/Lm's?

Unfortunately I do not stock those. Buyers mostly find only one or two LM's here or there. Dash and YHM is available as you said.

If R20k pushes you to the limit of your budget its going to create a problem re buying decent optics and ammo and extra mags and imo the difference in purchase price of the Dash/LM to the YHM is then better spent on getting ammo, mags and optics in that order. If your budget does not allow for enough ammo to learn to shoot the rifle well then paying R20k for the YHM is moot. You need ammo to train and do sport and you will most probably need more than 2 mags.

Depending on the sport you intend to pursue the short barreled Dash may not qualify ito factoring but other than that it is a competent rifle.

Re Dash for R10k - I would rather buy a LM for that price or a Colt AR SP1 for R9K - R12K. If you can get a good condition previously owned Dash for around R8K its another matter.

There are those that are of the opinion that the Raptor (a rifle based on the LM but with all the necessary rails to accept optics) from Truvelo is a good running rifle and I think it also sells for around R10K. I have no experience on the Raptor.

[ikor]

Khumba is your go to guy in SA for direct advice no doubt...I am on the other side of the big water at the moment (although I will soon be back for several more months) and in no way know the SA tactical rifle scene like him or some other guys here do. The Dashprod is nothing much more than an Arsenal AK in .223, and there really should be no reason you could not get one with a longer barrel so it would make the power factor in IPSC for a few bucks more maybe. For sure I agree 1000% that no spare mags and no ammo make the nicest tactical rifle useless.

I cannot speak to the Raptor either...never seen or held one, much less shot one.

[KK20]

the dash is nice but way more than 10K retail

[Paul]

There are those that are of the opinion that the Raptor (a rifle based on the LM but with all the necessary rails to accept optics) from Truvelo is a good running rifle and I think it also sells for around R10K. I have no experience on the Raptor.

I was shooting wiht the guys from Truvelo at a demo shoot a couple of weeks back and asked them specifically about the Raptor. Nobody could give me any indication as to when the 'new improved' model is actually coming to market. Was also bitching and whining about them not having a 23mm Russian anti-material rifle on demo hpy71

They said they'd only built 20 and the rounds were very scarce and expensive. I asked them if I could bring my own ammo... hpy194