W.W.Greener Empire model 12 ga

**Gert Odendaal** · 16-01-2015, 23:22

Originally Posted by 525

Great that the gun is in the right hands Gert, look forward with great interest to seeing some pics as the project progresses.

525 thank you very much for selling me this great W.W Greener shotgun it really is a beautiful rifle, I shot it yesterday, run six shells through it and it shot extremely well. This shotgun point and handles extremely well, it is too long for me since it has been extended to suite your length, I will re-fit a new recoil pad to it to fit my length it surely will shoot even better. Johan Greyling has a very positive view on this shotgun, it is entered into his stock and already on the shelf between his collection rifles...according to him it is his until I can show a licence card...

I want to take it to the field to shoot some francolin and pigeons...when I get my licence.

**Ds J** · 17-01-2015, 03:10

Originally Posted by Gert Odendaal

My pilot project , to get aquatint with the procedures , material use, types of jigs needed to build a mono-block and regulate the barrels will be a 8x57 JRS built on a 16 ga BRNO Poldi Electro side by side action . ...This is a project I want to pursue in the near future...I would like your opinion in this regards...

Gert, it cannot be all that difficult to build. Get a piece of steel, drill and tap it for the barrel, then seat them properly. I think you might need to do a littl file work to get the barrels to shoot straight, but that's about it.

Serious though, it sounds like a great idea - please keep us updated?

**Gert Odendaal** · 17-01-2015, 08:32

Ds.J, there are three extremely important processes you need to achieve when doing a conversion build.

First you want/need to have all the action weight "between the hands" to have a fine pointing/handling double rifle. The "holy grail" on this is the stock/action needs to equal in weight the barrel set and front arm rest.

Second you have to profile the front twelve inches to taper as thin as possible since the pressure at the muzzle is is much lower as in the chamber.

Thirdly you need to use the old method to regulate the rifle for one specific load/bullet weight to print at least 1 inch at fifty yards, the barrels must not cross over.

One step you can/may not leave out is proofing the barrels/action ....you need to proof the barrels/action when the whole build is completed , at least a load 30% heavier than a normal maximum load suggested by SONCHEM.

This is an extremely technical /mechanical type of build, you need to understand the different forces here at work: Reactive Axial forces, Radial forces, Axial forces Stress crack forces , all these forces happens around and in the action of a side by side double rifle..when detonation take place these forces try to open the barrels from the standing breech...that is why you need to make an informative choice regarding the type of donor action you need to use...as strong as possible with the most safety features build in by the manufactures of the rifle and action...the caliber you want to build needs to fit the gauge you need to use...

This is but a small part of what constitutes a conversion build...sorry if I bore you with the technical jargon...

**PistolBoy** · 17-01-2015, 09:04

Will you be soldering the barrels together? I know this could be one of the hardest parts. Because you need to bind/weld the barrels together and this heat is also bad for Point Of Impact/regulation.

**Gert Odendaal** · 17-01-2015, 09:53

Originally Posted by PistolBoy

Will you be soldering the barrels together? I know this could be one of the hardest parts. Because you need to bind/weld the barrels together and this heat is also bad for Point Of Impact/regulation.

Yes Pistolboy you need to solder the barrels together..keep in mind there are already at least two/three tapered spacers TIG welded between the two barrels and the quarter rib is screwed/tap /soldered onto one of the spacers ...only the last sic to twelve inches is soldered / unsoldered while doing the regulation process..heat is not a problem when doing regulation ...excessive heat is a problem when doing the procedures ...which needs to be taken in consideration while working with the torch... there are specific tools/jigs to facilitates the barrel soldering procedures and specific solder needs to be use with high binding properties up to 25000 psi....

**PistolBoy** · 17-01-2015, 22:27

You are the right man for the job then.

**Gert Odendaal** · 18-01-2015, 10:11

Originally Posted by PistolBoy

You are the right man for the job then.

Maybe so, but know for sure more than a few mistakes will accompany these type of projects. This will be a long term project, I need to understand what I am doing when building every part of the double rifle...keep in mind it is an enormous and quite difficult type of project build. Few people had engaged such a project , I certainly do not know of anyone in South Africa currently whom have done such a project...the most important issue is to get Johan`s blessing and permission to commence with such a project. Johan is going to build a falling block double in a 45-70 Goverment configuration when he has completed the 404 Jeffery rifles, I first will stand by to get insight in his project since a lot of procedures in shotgun conversion will be duplicated in the falling block project..especially the regulating phase...

A few photos of falling block doubles build by a gun-smith in America.

**Kaptein L** · 18-01-2015, 11:51

Wow beautiful!!!

Will cost a arm and two legs !!!

**525** · 18-01-2015, 18:05

Originally Posted by gwj DICKDEKOCK

Nice. I almost got my hands on one recently, but it didn't work out. From what I have heard, the can be very valuable?

The first William Greener started making percussion shotguns and rifles in 1829, he was the first to perfect shotgun chokes so their guns were in high demand and all top end. The demand for high end guns took a nose dive when World War 1 started so they changed tack and made good quality more affordable shotguns which are the Empire side by sides. The company was sold to Webley in the mid sixties, the fifth generation Greener bought the company back in 1985 making high end shotguns and double rifles again. One of the guys I met at a sporting clays range has a pre 1914 Greener hammer gun, he said the value was around R100k. The pic is an example of one of the new Greeners, blurred but gives the idea ...

**Gert Odendaal** · 18-01-2015, 19:32

525 I contacted Graham Greener of the W.W Greener company to get info regarding the origin of the W.W Greener Empire grade I bought from you. Pointing out the time period it took to build this rifle ...two years...he said when the company decide to manufacture a new caliber it take them ten years before the new rifles are marketed. They do not have access to the old manuscripts of the old calibers. They make use of back track engineering by taking a previously build Best Quality rifle in the specific caliber and copy it , machining all the parts to invent the caliber again.

Mentioning that they have a very long backlog of orders to complete..especially in the .375 H&H Flanged Magnum double rifle...so I think there are some people with a lot of money to be able to afford such a piece of art...

I shot a Amstrong and company best quality side by side 12 ga shotgun , one of Johan `s collection shot guns and I have to point out there is a reason companies make best quality rifles/shotguns and ask a lot of money for it...the handling and pointing properties of these rifles are just incredible....