Zeroing @ 100

[Thorkind]

http://link.brightcove.com/services/...id=45048505001

[2282]

He doesn't look like such a good shot...

[SpeedRock]

He doesn't look like such a good shot...

Kyle wasn't going for absolute precision. Watch the way he was shooting and listen to the cadence of the shots. He was just doing a battle zero.

I can tell you from first hand experience that Kyle Defoor is an awesome shooter. I've trained with him and the guy is good.

[DS]

He doesn't look like such a good shot...

Why do you say that??

He is shooting a 1 power optic (iow no magnification) - pretty damn good imo.

[Paul]

His shooting would benefit from NOT resting his mag on the ground!

I don't care how highly rated he is, that is poor practice.

[DS]

His shooting would benefit from NOT resting his mag on the ground!

I don't care how highly rated he is, that is poor practice.

Nope its not that simple - there are lots of tactical trainers that use it like that - the mag is like a mono pod - some rifles may not like the pressure on the mag though.

[Paul]

Nope its not that simple - there are lots of tactical trainers that use it like that - the mag is like a mono pod - some rifles may not like the pressure on the mag though.

I disagree. It actually is just that simple.

The magazine provides a point of support BEHIND the chamber of the rifle. In this case it becomes a pivot point. A monopod or bipod would attach forward of the chamber and provide support. The pivot point will (and does as can be seen in the footage) allow recoil to negatively affect the projectile's path and therefore the impact point on the target. Now since he fires his entire group from the same position and using the mag as a support, the entire group will suffer from a similar disturbance of point of impact, but this DOES not mean that the practice is any good at all. I guarantee that if he were to try to fire to the same point of aim from a different stance his point of impact would shift.

Were he to have tried this technique out in the SADF he would today be walking with a limp! His instructor/s would have kicked his legs to pieces!

[DS]

I disagree. It actually is just that simple.

The magazine provides a point of support BEHIND the chamber of the rifle. In this case it becomes a pivot point. A monopod or bipod would attach forward of the chamber and provide support. The pivot point will (and does as can be seen in the footage) allow recoil to negatively affect the projectile's path and therefore the impact point on the target. Now since he fires his entire group from the same position and using the mag as a support, the entire group will suffer from a similar disturbance of point of impact, but this DOES not mean that the practice is any good at all. I guarantee that if he were to try to fire to the same point of aim from a different stance his point of impact would shift.

Were he to have tried this technique out in the SADF he would today be walking with a limp! His instructor/s would have kicked his legs to pieces!

It is still not that simple.

The reason why it was taught not to rest the mag on the ground is that it could enduce a failure to feed depending on the type of rifle platform if undue forward or rearward pressure was applied to the rifle. The reason was not imo a technical explanation of pivot points.

There is not more recoil because he rests the mag - take note that the idea is not to lean on the rifle but to rest the rifle - having a third point of contact is better than 2 elbows alone.

This not target shooting - it is battle zero - he is not trying to attain 2 moa groups with a battle rifle and a 1 power optic.

Luckliy we have more modern developments in techniques than SANDF techniques of 30 years ago.

I will rather follow the advice of modern rifle instructor like Travis Haley or Kyle than that of a 20 year old corporal 20 or 30 years ago.

[Paul]

It is still not that simple.

I suspect this point can be easily proven on a range...

The reason why it was taught not to rest the mag on the ground is that it could enduce a failure to feed depending on the type of rifle platform if undue forward or rearward pressure was applied to the rifle. The reason was not imo a technical explanation of pivot points.

The reason given at the time was not technical at all, but rather that "Jy *** sal skiet, en dan sal ek jou geweer deur jou ore druk en jou oppie paradegrond rondry soos 'n Harley Davidson!"

It was deemed a good enough explanation at the time by us all, although we all saw the sagacity of the advice later during many years of practice.

There is not more recoil because he rests the mag - take note that the idea is not to lean on the rifle but to rest the rifle - having a third point of contact is better than 2 elbows alone.

No-one is suggestign magnified recoil at all, rather a more detrimental effect of the existing recoil. The rifle is a lever. All points of contact are either support points or pivot points along the length of that lever. The purpose of the support is to hold the barrel (including the chamber) as steady as possible from final sight picture/moment of initiation until the projectile leaves the muzzle whereupon external ballistics takes over.

If you support the barrel anywhere along it's length it will have a greater or lesser stabilising effect depending on where the balance or pivot point of the support is. When you use the base of the magazine as a support it is behind the barrel and chamber and is more a pivot than a support. When recoil (the rearwards force) is exerted on the barrel it pushes the other support points rearwards, but not the point of contact with the ground. The magazine pivots on the point of contact with the ground and rides the rifle upwards, and before the projectile has left the muzzle!

Think about it, it makes mechanical sense.

This not target shooting - it is battle zero - he is not trying to attain 2 moa groups with a battle rifle and a 1 power optic.

No argument. And it is irrelevant to this discussion.

Luckliy we have more modern developments in techniques than SANDF techniques of 30 years ago.

It would be greatly appreciated if you wouldn't confuse the SADF with the SANDF:ch

Musketry has changed little in some respects over the last 150 years. Mechanics has changed not al all.

I will rather follow the advice of modern rifle instructor like Travis Haley or Kyle than that of a 20 year old corporal 20 or 30 years ago.

You only say that because said 20yo Corporal is not behind you on the shooting line anymore

You forget that said Corporal had the accumulated knowledge of one of the finest infantries of the world behind him, in his turn.

[SSP]

Pat Rodgers busted the mag monopod accuracy/poi myth in a recent SWAT mag, with side by side accuracy tests, if I recall.

Sticking to "accumulated knowledge" for the sake of it is nonsensical. Using the same *** technique or equipment because "thats how we did it in the mag" is counterproductive.