Sig Pistols

[Craig]

And to follow on from the BHP thread. Most of the early Sig P226 & P228 pistols floating around SA are made with stamped steel slides and only available in 9mm. The newer Sigs are made with machined stainless steel slides and are available in .40 & .357sig calibres, as well as 9mm. I've read somewhere that the slides were changed when the .40 & .357 were introduced as the stamped slides weren't strong enough to withstand the beating. So, does that mean that the stamped steel slide Sig's will have similar issues with +P and +P+ ammo that the BHP may? or not?

[BigT]

I understand that the stamped slide models chug along nicely as long as you replace the roll pins every 5000 sounds. The frames eventually crack but the gun still works accuracy does suffer though. Many people seem to reckon that QC was far better on earlier models than currently.

[ikor]

The US Navy SEALS also adopted the Sig 226 in 9mm although, like many SPECWAR units, they can have pretty much whatever they want for a specific mission. This was not so much a huge vote of confidence for the Sig as the fact that they generally preferred it to the Beretta 92 and it was also already approved for military purchase, having passed the Pistol Trials. AFIK they still use it. The Sig 228 is also in US military service as the M11 and is issued to some investigators. In the finest tradition of government bureaucracy, the Glock is not eligible for use by non SPECWAR troops because it does not have a manual 'safety'...even though regs still require the sidearm to be carried with empty chamber.

I have had quite a bit of experience with the older 226s and never had a problem with any of them...they just run like sewing machines. I have seen only one older frame crack and Sig immediately replaced the whole gun for our officer. Maybe 35% of my agency opted for the 226 after autopistols were approved for purchase and use by Deputies. Sig beefed the frames on the pre-machined-slide models long ago and I have not seen nor heard of a cracked from since then but that does not mean it has not happened. I do not care for the newer models so much, especially in 9mm, as I think the heavy slide changes the balance of the gun for the worse, but I do in-service training sometimes for a state agency that issues the new 226 in .40, and we have seen no problems at all with them after several years. My local PD recently traded their old P229s in .40 for new 220s in .45 but had all sorts of problems with feeding and ejection which Sig just did not seem to take seriously. When their SWAT team refused to carry the new pistols and went back to their 229s and Sig said they could find nothing wrong with the 220s for about the fourth time, the PD cancelled the contract, sued Sig for the wasted time and expense and bought new Glock 22s, which have worked just fine so far. I have an older, stamped slide 220 / 45 that has some sentimental value so that I will never sell it, but it has always worked 100% and I would not hesitate to carry it tomorrow if I had to.

All we issued for carry in 9mm was +P+ stuff and the 226s, Beretta 92s and steel S&W pistols all ate it like candy and begged for more. Some of those same pistols are now used for off duty carry by Deputies and are still going strong after almost 20 years. (The agency now issues H&Ks with the LEM)

Big T is correct (as usual) about the roll pins.

[BigT]

Sorry I didnt mean to imply that all frames will crack. I should have stated that they can after enough rounds. thanks for the info ikor I have heard that the 220 can be more problematic than the others and your experience bears this out.

[ikor]

Big T;

The 220s were (and are in my opinion) the most problematic by far. The older 220s all had alloy frames (as does mine) and you need to make certain to 'lock the wrist' when shooting them for best feed performance. The high bore line and light weight lead to significant 'muzzle flip' and I have seen several shooters who constantly had misfeeds with them, yet a different shooter could take the gun...same magazines, same ammo...and run it just fine. The older Sig 220 magazines are also somewhat prone to come apart at the top after a few years of being loaded...the new SS mags are great however. Stay away from the 8rd mags (originally designed for Texas DPS) as they do not work reliably in many guns, and the 220 needs more lube than do the 226 / 228 / 229's to run well in my experience.

The 225 and its almost twin brother the P6 German service pistol, are also sometimes quirky about feeding. I have never seen a 225 that worked reliably with +P+ rounds. Apparently the slide velocity combined with the shorter slide would not allow enough time for the next round in the mag to come up far enough before the slide closed over it...or partially over...a nasty jam that one. Put standard or +P ammo in and they ran just fine...go figure. The P6 was designed from the start around the FMJ round and many will not feed JHP ammo well, if at all. We have had a huge influx of these used pistols in the states recently as the German Police upgrade to the new H&K pistols, but the last time I was in the Munich airport all the Polizi were still carrying P6s as far as I could tell

[Craig]

Thanks BigT & ikor, I pretty much thought they'd be ok, but it just made me think. I've got a P226 in a box somewhere, and may have a P228 joining it at some stage, I've always liked them and never heard any issues with either until I read the comment about the new slides, but that doesn't seem to apply to the 9mm then.

Anyone know how military ball ammo conpares to +P or +P+, I know most is loaded slightly hotter, just wonder where it fits in?

[andy_760901]

Hi Craig.

I owned and used my P228 a fair deal and always shot it with the military ammo and found it to recoil almost the same as the generic ball, i have heard that it is loaded a little hotter but have never confirmed this though, mine fed 100% reliably with the military ball 115Gr. and i would feel comfy using this in a P228, the felt recoil and percieved recoil of the slide at the pinnicle of its travel does not seem to slam home at full recoil, and as such would not think that it would wear or break parts excessively, as my P12 Para used to recaoil hard and snappy, that i would think would have been more detremental to a gun, but hey what do i know, nothing scientific, just my experiance shooting my P228 in 9mmP...

[ikor]

The only current 'military ball' I have access to is US NATO spec issue stuff and those run a 124gr bullet at around 1200-1225 FPS...pretty hot ammo. I have always been told the Brit '2Z' loads were hot but have never shot any. NATO has spec standards for both 115 and 124gr 9mm, for sure, and may have them for other weights as well. Non-NATO stuff is all over the map, with some older surplus being corrosive. I have shot maybe a couple hundred of the PMP FMJ issued by SAPS and can say it was not in the same league as the US M882 ball, but it was clean and went 'bang' every time.

[Corné]

That is about +P levels......

[Craig]

Thanks ikor, that was my guess on the mil stuff, and if it can do those round counts with those pressures it should serve me well. ;D