New: Using a Sect 16 licenced firearm for SD.

[Gun Dragon]

I agree, I will be carrying my OSS CZ. Should there ever be a life-threatening situation, it will be used, without a doubt. People must be careful not to generalise and as you say bitch about the subject. I cannot wait to fetch my new baby and carry her too :)

[MTTSS]

FFS!

If it is not explicitly described as being 'not allowed', then by logical conclusion (and by virtue of the our implementation of law) it is then allowed... because it has NOT been specifically forbidden.

I remember now why everyone bitches about this subject being beaten like a dead horse when all of these arguments and discussion points have been covered, explained and debated ad-nausium, and effectively been dealt with by matter experts in the legal profession.

If the FA is in your safe, it must be unloaded. If in the boot of your car, in a bag, it MUST BE UNLOADED. If you are carrying the gun in a holster on your waist, it can have one in the pipe. That is actually what 'EDC' implies.

Your arguments are thus invalid, and pointedly, wrong.

P.S. I carry my Section 16 pistol as an EDC piece 99% of the time... and shock-horror, is has a round in the pipe.

The law is not always that clear as you may believe or wish, and the FCA is everything but a piece of legislation which can be complemented by superb draftsmanship and completeness. Conversely, the argument could be why the legislature bothered about what is going on inside the safe, if he had no issues of what was going on outside the safe. A bit absurd, isn't it?

Anyway, just ask yourself the question as to what you think a court may do, based on the community's views on matters such as this. At this point in time, you may very well get a result that you did not want to hear.

You may very well not be prosecuted for carrying your section 16 pistol all the time. Or even if you have used it justifiably in a SD situation. That remains something that the Gerrie Nel's of this world will decide about, and the Judge Masipa's of this world will rule about.

But just remember for a moment how far Gerrie Nel will go in order to throw the book and everything else at you, including what has remained of your watermelon exploits.

The question remains:

Will you carry your AR15 with you to the mall for SD purposes, and would you recommend that the forum viewers do it, and what is your accredited association's stance on this, the one that endorsed your AR for sport shooting purposes?

And why would lawyers then advise their clients not to go the sport shooter route, if they complain that it is so much hassle to get guns licensed for business purposes? Practically speaking, if the anti poaching guys approach KRJ Attorneys, why not advise them that they can bypass all the red tape of section 20, and take a shortcut with section 16, because the operators can use those guns for whatever legal purpose there may be.

All of the above here is not the nature of the debate we should be having at this point in our community. Let's rather focus on what we are about to do concerning most off, if not all our rights to be owning firearms that is in an advanced stage to be taken away, and what we are going to do about that.

[Psychosis]

The question remains:

Will you carry your AR15 with you to the mall for SD purposes, and would you recommend that the forum viewers do it, and what is your accredited association's stance on this, the one that endorsed your AR for sport shooting purposes?

No, I would not... for 3 reasons


1. The act requires a FA to be covered, which in the case of an AR would mean that deployment time would be a little too long for my liking.
2. I prefer (over and above the law required that an FA be covered) that my carry gun be invisible to the general public (which includes potential perps)... purely for the reason that such would allow me some element of surprise.
3. I no longer have an AR. I sold it.

Yawn!

[Anomander]

The very worst case scenario, even if MTTSS's doomsday interpretation of the Act is applied, is that you can still carry your S16 pistol on you, but the magazine just has to be in a separate magazine holder. So what it does is delay you by the 3-5 seconds necessary to insert the mag and rack the slide.

Which would make carry for Defensive use much more difficult, and less effective, but not entirely impossible.

The whole situation sounds absurd though, as there is nothing in the wording of the Act that expressly prohibits you from carrying a loaded S16 gun on your hip, unless your hip is now deemed to be a "place of storage".

[MTTSS]

Nowhere in the Act does it state that I may sit on my left ass-cheek while carrying my firearm, and it also doesn't say that I'm allowed to eat dinner with it in on my hip. WHAT TO DO!?!?!

EDIT: MTTSS, don't you have a legal background and aren't you part of the guys helping GOSA sort out CFR issues?

Toxxyc.

Indeed. This line of reasoning offered here is not assisting our cause in my personal humble view. May I add, that law is somewhat like flying in these matters of opinion. You get old pilots and you get bold pilots, but you do not get old and bold pilots.

In the past few days in particular, we have seen the most absurd reasons for refusals. As community we are in big shit as far as the advancement of the assault on our rights to own firearms are concerned. I expect new draft legislation early in the new year, and as things now stand, it may be pushed through parliament despite whatever resistance we seem to be able to muster. Let's concentrate our energy rather on working together against that.

And as to my opinion on the subject in this thread in particular, I will voice it without fear of going out on a limb. I am not one for telling people or clients what they want to hear, and never will I be. I believe that following the particular ruling of the application in the OP, may not be wise. You will in any event not find any lawyer that will indemnify you if you follow that advise. From a sport shooter perspective, I also deem such advice to be unwise. It cannot do us any good.

You may just find the next Casper that uses his Section 16 semi auto ehhh, unwisely, and then I wonder what the nature of our debate will be. I guess everyone will stand in line and will hardly be able to wait their turn, to lambaste him, without exception.

[Lian]

But you not allowed to carry a s16 gun loaded

[Black-ops]

Toxxyc.

Indeed. This line of reasoning offered here is not assisting our cause in my personal humble view. May I add, that law is somewhat like flying in these matters of opinion. You get old pilots and you get bold pilots, but you do not get old and bold pilots.

In the past few days in particular, we have seen the most absurd reasons for refusals. As community we are in big shit as far as the advancement of the assault on our rights to own firearms are concerned. I expect new draft legislation early in the new year, and as things now stand, it may be pushed through parliament despite whatever resistance we seem to be able to muster. Let's concentrate our energy rather on working together against that.

And as to my opinion on the subject in this thread in particular, I will voice it without fear of going out on a limb. I am not one for telling people or clients what they want to hear, and never will I be. I believe that following the particular ruling of the application in the OP, may not be wise. You will in any event not find any lawyer that will indemnify you if you follow that advise. From a sport shooter perspective, I also deem such advice to be unwise. It cannot do us any good.

You may just find the next Casper that uses his Section 16 semi auto ehhh, unwisely, and then I wonder what the nature of our debate will be. I guess everyone will stand in line and will hardly be able to wait their turn, to lambaste him, without exception.

But MTTSS, I watched all the episodes of Law and order on TV, it always plays out like that doesn't it?

[Toxxyc]

Toxxyc.

Indeed. This line of reasoning offered here is not assisting our cause in my personal humble view. May I add, that law is somewhat like flying in these matters of opinion. You get old pilots and you get bold pilots, but you do not get old and bold pilots.

In the past few days in particular, we have seen the most absurd reasons for refusals. As community we are in big shit as far as the advancement of the assault on our rights to own firearms are concerned. I expect new draft legislation early in the new year, and as things now stand, it may be pushed through parliament despite whatever resistance we seem to be able to muster. Let's concentrate our energy rather on working together against that.

And as to my opinion on the subject in this thread in particular, I will voice it without fear of going out on a limb. I am not one for telling people or clients what they want to hear, and never will I be. I believe that following the particular ruling of the application in the OP, may not be wise. You will in any event not find any lawyer that will indemnify you if you follow that advise. From a sport shooter perspective, I also deem such advice to be unwise. It cannot do us any good.

You may just find the next Casper that uses his Section 16 semi auto ehhh, unwisely, and then I wonder what the nature of our debate will be. I guess everyone will stand in line and will hardly be able to wait their turn, to lambaste him, without exception.

I'm not disagreeing with you that we are in big shit. The fact that I'm waiting for months without any progress on my latest S16 app (12GA pump shotgun, DHS) proves it. But I'm not quite convinced that it's the best idea to give people advice that's in contravention with what the law says. To take your "carrying MSR for SD" argument further, as long as it's bagged there's no reason anyone can do you anything if you walk down the street with the gun. It's legal. Same as carrying your S16/S15 firearm. Hell you can carry your Razorcat with a 33-round extended magazine, as long as you fall within the law. Why would you want to stir up issues where there are none?

[racingfreak]

Wow, just when I though I've read all the stupidest shit people can conjure up pertaining to legal gun use I stumble onto this gem of a thread...

[Black-ops]

If you guys want to see the laws regarding this change sooner rather then later start EDC'ing your AR 15's and semi auto shotguns around.