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  1. #11

    Default Re: License App - Section 15

    Hello guys hope yourl are all well .my question is can I use my section 15 for self defense

  2. #12
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    Default Re: License App - Section 15

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojojimmy View Post
    Hello guys hope yourl are all well .my question is can I use my section 15 for self defense
    Yes...
    https://natshoot.s3.amazonaws.com/up...%20Defence.pdf

  3. #13
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    Default Re: License App - Section 15

    Have seen the arguments go back and forth. The licensing protocol acts as a justification for you to receive official police approval for the right to be in legal possession of a firearm.

    It wouldn't be too far removed to make the argument, that the firearm is actually under the proprietorship of the government. They have the jurisdiction to allow you to handle the firearms, via licensure, subject to mandated terms and conditions. If you do not adhere, and it can be proven in a court of law, it is seized and disposed of. Without government approval, you will be in illegal possession of said firearm, and be subject to criminal prosecution.

    When you apply under S15 you are asking CFR to allow you to possess a firearm, because you do occasionally sport shooting/hunting.

    Alternatively, under S13, you are afraid that you or someone around you has a great likelihood of being in mortal peril and a firearm is a necessity to protect the right to life.

    What the FCA does not stipulate, is a difference in sanctioned legal use once license is granted. Nowhere's is it stated that under S13 you may not shoot IDPA matches. Similarly, under S15 it is not stipulated, that in the case of a self defense incident, you will have breached firearms legislature and will be charged for unlicensed use of said firearm. AS LONG AS SELF DEFENCE WAS JUSTIFIED, AND CAN BE SUCCESSFULLY ARGUED AS SUCH IN A COURT OF LAW. (Which is a whole different can of worms)

    THE FCA acts as a structure for CFR to issue the legal right to be in possession of the firearm. It does not state a limit to its use. Thus I would argue that, under S13, S15, S16 your rights are exactly the same. But your reasoning and responsibility for possession differs.


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  4. #14
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    Default Re: License App - Section 15

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtom View Post
    Have seen the arguments go back and forth. The licensing protocol acts as a justification for you to receive official police approval for the right to be in legal possession of a firearm.

    It wouldn't be too far removed to make the argument, that the firearm is actually under the proprietorship of the government. They have the jurisdiction to allow you to handle the firearms, via licensure, subject to mandated terms and conditions. If you do not adhere, and it can be proven in a court of law, it is seized and disposed of. Without government approval, you will be in illegal possession of said firearm, and be subject to criminal prosecution.

    When you apply under S15 you are asking CFR to allow you to possess a firearm, because you do occasionally sport shooting/hunting.

    Alternatively, under S13, you are afraid that you or someone around you has a great likelihood of being in mortal peril and a firearm is a necessity to protect the right to life.

    What the FCA does not stipulate, is a difference in sanctioned legal use once license is granted. Nowhere's is it stated that under S13 you may not shoot IDPA matches. Similarly, under S15 it is not stipulated, that in the case of a self defense incident, you will have breached firearms legislature and will be charged for unlicensed use of said firearm. AS LONG AS SELF DEFENCE WAS JUSTIFIED, AND CAN BE SUCCESSFULLY ARGUED AS SUCH IN A COURT OF LAW. (Which is a whole different can of worms)

    THE FCA acts as a structure for CFR to issue the legal right to be in possession of the firearm. It does not state a limit to its use. Thus I would argue that, under S13, S15, S16 your rights are exactly the same. But your reasoning and responsibility for possession differs.


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    So you say yes?

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  5. #15
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    Default Re: License App - Section 15

    Unfortunately there is no concrete yes or no answer to this issue, as as is so often the case with the topic of 'legality'. Would I be confident enough to tell you that you can carry a section 16 handgun concealed, to and from the range? Yes, it is reasonable to assume that it is within the constraints of what the FCA stipulates for a S16/15 license holder.

    The handgun is legally licensed in your name, and you are travelling to and from an approved activity for which it was intended, as according to your motivation for sports shooting. (Which the high court ruled is not required for approval under S16, but that is another story)

    Where it becomes less clear, is when you carry a S16/S15 with the express purpose of self defense. If you happen to use a firearm in a grey self defense scenario, you will most certainly be charged and have to defend yourself in court. I can assure you, that they will make a point to deconstruct your reasoning for having a S16 weapon on you, at 1 in the morning driving home from n braai, with no registered instance of having participated in a sports shoot the past 4 months.

    But as long as the self defense scenario is considered to be warranted, with a reasonable degree of force, that you did not provoke the occurrence and you had a objectively reasonable fear of a threat to your or someone else's life, with a good record of participation in sports shooting, it is my opinion that a good argument can be made.

    If you feel the need to have a firearm for self defense, as many do in our country, why not apply for it under S13? The FCA accommodates us for this express purpose.

    Yet some might again say, it is better to be judged by 4 than carried by 6.

    Difficult to give an answer, and I am sure there will be many that can offer you better feedback.


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  6. #16
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    Default Re: License App - Section 15

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtom View Post
    Unfortunately there is no concrete yes or no answer to this issue, as as is so often the case with the topic of 'legality'. Would I be confident enough to tell you that you can carry a section 16 handgun concealed, to and from the range? Yes, it is reasonable to assume that it is within the constraints of what the FCA stipulates for a S16/15 license holder.
    Some would argue that it is never reasonable to assume. Fortunately, because of the wording of the act we don't need to. A section 15 or 16 firearm can be used for any lawful purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtom View Post
    Where it becomes less clear, is when you carry a S16/S15 with the express purpose of self defense.
    Self defence is a lawful purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtom View Post
    If you happen to use a firearm in a grey self defense scenario, you will most certainly be charged and have to defend yourself in court. I can assure you, that they will make a point to deconstruct your reasoning for having a S16 weapon on you, at 1 in the morning driving home from n braai, with no registered instance of having participated in a sports shoot the past 4 months.
    Perhaps. You may be asked the question but the answer remains the same. Self defence is a lawful purpose. From an interpretative perspective one of the early drafts of the FCA criminalised this exact scenario, i.e. the carrying of sport gun for self defence. That it was omitted in the version that was passed is indicative of the legislature's intention. That inquiry only becomes relevant if the plain text of the act is unclear, which it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtom View Post
    But as long as the self defense scenario is considered to be warranted, with a reasonable degree of force, that you did not provoke the occurrence and you had a objectively reasonable fear of a threat to your or someone else's life, with a good record of participation in sports shooting, it is my opinion that a good argument can be made.
    What section of the act your gun is licenced under is not going to make a good shoot bad or vice versa. Out of interest, and for context, on what do you base your opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtom View Post
    If you feel the need to have a firearm for self defense, as many do in our country, why not apply for it under S13? The FCA accommodates us for this express purpose.
    Licencing periods and ammunition restrictions are two reasons. Although, the latter is a perceived reason.
    Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal:
    But I know one thing that never dies,
    the glory of the great dead.
    Havamal

  7. #17
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    Default Re: License App - Section 15

    Hi SSP,

    Thanks for the reply. Always appreciate a community open to discourse.

    Concerning the point on assumption, the judicial system takes into account the 'Man on the Clapham Omnibus', or the concept of the reasonable person, where assumptions are certainly taken into account.
    I would argue that the FCA is not worded as accurately as is insinuated, otherwise we would have a concrete stance on legality. The FCA is unfortunately quite vague and open to interpretation.

    Furthermore, self defence is a legal concept, to be tested in a court of law. There is no standardised definition of self defence, as situational differences don't allow for this. There are always clear cut variants, but also instances where it is grey.

    Unfortunately, if your only argument in-front of a judge is self defence, you might find the trial to be shorter than expected. It is not always black and white. If a gentlemen finds the need to hit you over the head with a brick, and you use fatal force, is it justified? Was it reasonable for a man in your position to have shot him instead of running away?

    My argument concerning the regular participation in sports shooting, is that the courts would clearly see that the firearms use for self defence was not pre-meditated. That you can in fact confirm that you use the firearm for its licensed purpose.

    I understand where you are coming from, and I agree with you on your points. But we have the same opinions as gun owners, sports shooters and hunters. But the courts are not always as understanding. Remember, if you go to trial, there will be someone doing everything in their power to put you behind bars. It's what they are employed to do.


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  8. #18

    Default Re: License App - Section 15

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtom View Post
    Hi SSP,

    Thanks for the reply. Always appreciate a community open to discourse.

    Concerning the point on assumption, the judicial system takes into account the 'Man on the Clapham Omnibus', or the concept of the reasonable person, where assumptions are certainly taken into account.
    I would argue that the FCA is not worded as accurately as is insinuated, otherwise we would have a concrete stance on legality. The FCA is unfortunately quite vague and open to interpretation.

    Furthermore, self defence is a legal concept, to be tested in a court of law. There is no standardised definition of self defence, as situational differences don't allow for this. There are always clear cut variants, but also instances where it is grey.

    Unfortunately, if your only argument in-front of a judge is self defence, you might find the trial to be shorter than expected. It is not always black and white. If a gentlemen finds the need to hit you over the head with a brick, and you use fatal force, is it justified? Was it reasonable for a man in your position to have shot him instead of running away?

    My argument concerning the regular participation in sports shooting, is that the courts would clearly see that the firearms use for self defence was not pre-meditated. That you can in fact confirm that you use the firearm for its licensed purpose.

    I understand where you are coming from, and I agree with you on your points. But we have the same opinions as gun owners, sports shooters and hunters. But the courts are not always as understanding. Remember, if you go to trial, there will be someone doing everything in their power to put you behind bars. It's what they are employed to do.


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    That's certainly how many prosecutors in the US work (anything for the win, even sending innocent people to jail), I hope that isn't the case in SA and they have a bit more sense.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: License App - Section 15

    Sec15 indicates that you may use the firearm where it is safe to do so and for lawful purpose ........ thus if you driving to/from where ever and you have been at a shoot during the day (can prove) and you have to use the firearm for SD i think you will be okay.
    That being said, there are varying opinions, but it is my mind set that the sections specifying use has been separated for a reason.... indicating what you may use the firearm for under a specific section.
    If you want to EDC get a SD firearm and use Sec15&16 for the purpose you licensed.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: License App - Section 15

    Exactly my opinion. Arguing whether it is legal or not does not inspire confidence. When you use a firearm in self defence you want to be damn sure that all your bases are covered.
    A s13 license is specifically indicated by the FCA that not only is it designated for use to that end, but the CFR has evaluated and approved your motivation. The CFR as such has given you express permission to carry a firearm for self defense, due to the apparent threat to your life.


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