Training pointing dogs

**Just Plain Phil** · 13-05-2010, 09:58

Ikor. I've seen a Young Pointer ( Slimy Dog) here from the "HOF CH Guard Rail" line , man O man.
This dog can RANGE, and it even comes back, at a stage we thought we may need it trap it. I've scene his dog range 800m to the left of us only to come past us, Give us the Finger, and range 700m to the right of us. The GPS said so.
His a bit Young for this years FT, next year he'll be ready. That said, he might be entered into a Puppy Stake later in the year.

From what I've heard and read, researched and the like. If you are looking for a wide ranging dog look at the States. The "Hunting Ground" in Europe have become so divided up and small that the Good Folks up north are breeding dogs that don't range as far. This would apply to all Pointing Breeds. A Good Fellow here in the Last Outpost is currently also looking at the States for a Vizsla Male he would like to bring in. I've noticed that with the GSP's those from lines brought in from the States also range further than those from Up North.

I'm a bit on the slow side, so a medium ranging dog, 200 to 300 m suites me fine.

**ikor** · 13-05-2010, 10:47

You need large areas to use such dogs to their fullest abilities and few people have access to such places any more, even stateside. The plantations are privately owned and specifically managed for quail (bobwhite) and most will have 4000-5000 hectares or more of property to hunt on. Thus a dog that ranges 800m in each direction is not a problem...especially since the huntmaster can see him easily from his horse (another reason the predominately white coat is preferred). A couple of guys hunting on foot will rarely want or need a dog that does that.

I was always told that many of the European breeds were developed to be able to hunt and retrieve almost anything, since on a typical day those hunters might run into, and take, birds, rabbits, ducks, etc. all on the same hunt. Makes sense also that they would not want a wide ranging dog for their purposes. Interestingly, during WWII the US military found that quite a few of the European hunting breeds would hunt men with all the gusto they did birds...until some dumbazz surplused them all out because some non-dog brass believed they might be too 'birdy' for war. The GSP and German Wirehair both had pretty high percentages of excellent prospects, and I have seen a couple of wirehaires that would protect 'their' truck or their masters gear very seriously indeed!

The most controlled breeding program I am aware of that was / is open to the public is that of the SV (Schafer Verein) of Germany for the German Shepherd Dog. Since the top dogs are bred heavily to, the SV will deliberately put 'up' conformation dogs that are, say, taller with bigger bone structure if they believe they are seeing too many smaller, finer dogs. They have done this for decades along with other programs, and it has mostly worked. But sadly, even there, the show people (and $$$) have watered down the performance of my own personal favorite breed to the point where the German Police have now gone to Malinois and crossbred GSD / Mal candidates to find dogs that will do the work and hold up. Yes, there are still GSD's that can work and work well, but not in the numbers they used to be. Once again, there is a wide gap between the working dog people abd the 'conformation' people.

I suppose it is asking too much for large numbers of people...most who never use the breed (any breed) for what it was intended...to remain true to any original performance standard.

**Just Plain Phil** · 13-05-2010, 10:57

" I have seen a couple of wirehaires that would protect 'their' truck or their masters gear very seriously indeed"

My Vizsla is like that, it's his Truck and his along.

**ikor** · 13-05-2010, 11:17

Originally Posted by Just Plain Phil

" I have seen a couple of wirehaires that would protect 'their' truck or their masters gear very seriously indeed"

My Vizsla is like that, it's his Truck and his along.

Gotta love that!

**tracker** · 25-05-2010, 21:59

This weekend the SAFTC hosted its first training session at the new training facility on the flats near Tuinplaas. During the lunch break the conversation revolved around our pointers and their breeding.
Some interesting points were put forward and the consensus was that our gene pool is getting narrower and narrower which in the long term will have a negative impact on our breeds.

Importing dogs would resolve the problem. Outside of the cost involved, this option creates problems of its own. For example, simply studying the pedigree will not be of any real value as this gives no indication of the dog’s characteristics. So unless we have a trustworthy person overseas who is familiar with individual dog on the pedigree, and our specific requirements, the importing of a dog might and probably will not improve the local gene pool.
Most of top overseas lines are already in our lines from previous imports, expecialy from the German and Italian breeders

The next solution will probably result in my burning at the stake by the show dog and field trail enthusiasts; for the record I’m a field trailer and hunter.
There are many unregistered pointer in the field which are great dog and do not descend for any of our current established lines.
The story goes something like this. Piet the farmers has a pointer he found on his farm, knows what the dog is used for, take his 2 walk hailgun and shoots over the dog. The dog hunts well and produces many birds, a great hunting dog.
A hunter, Carlo the pizzaiolo from Norwood who drinks copious quantities of Chianti and sings like Pavarotti, and his pointers visits Piet’s farm for a weekend shoot. The two hunt together and have a great day. Time passes and a bitch goes on heat. Carlo was impressed with Piet dog. The friends get together, drink Grappa, eat biltong sing late into the night, and a mating takes place.
A great litter of working pointers arrives and are distributed to friends and family. With much drinking and singing, during the ensuing years the process is repeated over and over again by other individuals. The dogs selected to mate, are generally known to the hunter/handlers as individuals and not as names on a piece of paper. The dog’s conformation, style, work ethic and character are known. The puppies might not be anything like the parents, but I’d take my chances knowing the parents first hand any day before looking at the pedigree of dogs I do not know. Ideally you would look at both if it were possible.
From a purist point of view this is taboo as the dogs are not registered.

As hunter/trailer in the mainline of breeding, we should in some way create an avenue for the dogs which are bred from unregistered lines to be brought back into the gene pool. The only limit should be that there be no cross breeding between Pointer and Setters or GSP. Put pointer to pointer, GSP to GSP etc

We must not allow our gene pool to regress and do all in our power to expand the pool with some creative rational breeding.

An analogy could be made with humans in business. Imagine if only MBA’s were selected for “breeding”. All the great business men who are not graduates would be lost to the gene pool, how many Bill Gates’s we would have we lost. Make you think hey !!!

**Just Plain Phil** · 26-05-2010, 08:10

Use the NFTA appendix register

**ikor** · 26-05-2010, 09:07

In light of Tracker's post...

The Colby family in the US has bred one of the most famous lines of pitbull terriers in the world for over 100 years now. Until probably the mid 1930's or so, these dogs were bred purely for performance, and failure to perform in the fighting pit was rewarded with ruthless culling...bear with me here...I am NOT advocating dog fighting! None of the old dogs had anything resembling registration papers, but they DID have pedigrees. Their history was meticulously kept in ledger books by the family members, starting with the old man himself when he arrived from the old country.

This process is also used by many plantations in the states where only pointers and retrievers that will perform are kept and bred...many have no registration papers but 'purebred' and 'pedigreed' they most certainly are...and the owners of these places have plenty of money to buy champion field trial dogs if they wanted. (and some do). The kennel masters at these places just laugh at 'papers' and say the proof is in the performance, and they are right.

The Malinois has all but replaced the GSD as the Police Service Dog of choice all over the world, and even the German Police kennels are freely interbreeding the two in order to get dogs that will work. The vast majority of working Mals have zero registration papers, and blood from everything that will run, track and bite, including pitbulls, but that does not seem to matter to the criminals they tackle.

But as also noted by Tracker, it takes dedicated individuals who understand what is wanted by hunters and needed in a performance dog (the best nose is worthless if the dog has no stamina, etc) to actually improve a breed while adding some outside blood to the lines. Fortunately, one can raise several generations of dogs in 5-10 years, so it is possible to see what such breedings have done for better or worse. It is how the hunting Irish Setter was resurrected as well as several other breeds, and none of these dogs will ever see the inside of a show ring nor participate in an official field trial.

**tracker** · 26-05-2010, 18:35

Ikor, the key is in the performance,they are working dog after all.

**tracker** · 26-05-2010, 19:50

Phil I was referring to enhancing our gene pool not attempting to have the dogs registered with the NFTA or the SAFTC stud books. The problem with an appendix is that as time goes by one end up with many different appendices. One for unregistered dog, one for dogs with HD, one of dogs with other physical defects, one for dogs with handlers who are loony etc eventually the whole process ceases to be relevant. We have to somehow get the registered and unregistered dogs together. If we do not know what’s out there how can we select the breeding. It is a question of meaningful information and not registration.
A senior member of the SAFTC is working on this idea. This particular individual had the idea of a wing shooting assoc and was a founder member of the original SA Wingshooters which eventually became the organization run by Raoul today. He was also a founder member of the Black Powder Assoc. This appears to be his forte, I’m sure he will come up with something.
We have to stay away from rules, regulation, committee meetings and constitutions when deciding on our breeding. Why must we subject ourselves to rules regarding breeding of an organization which we have no interest in? Most wing shooters will never take part in a NFTA sanctioned event anyway. It would probably be counter productive to have any association with the NFTA. We must take a leaf out of the plantation owners’ book and breed for performance. Keep minimal records and monitor the outcomes.

On a different note, I heard there was turmoil in the NFTA regarding the rules relating to the registration of dog with HD, or am I mistaken.

Phil you posted some great photos on the hunting thread.

**ikor** · 26-05-2010, 21:26

Take a page from the German system and elect qualified 'Breed Wardens' who know all the lines, know the incidence of HD within the lines, know the unregistered dogs as well, and know what is needed in a SA hunting dog of the breed...dogs getting too big and coarse? Breed Warden can suggest which ones to breed to with your bitch to eliminate that and keep the hunting instinct preserved, etc. It is not a perfect system but it works better than anything else I know of...IF owners will go along with it. SA guys tend to be pretty independent so maybe it is not a system that will work there?