Shooting a red dot

**phant1m** · 16-10-2017, 21:42

So I have heard from quite a few credible people that learning to shoot a red dot is a really good way to learn trigger control. Then transferring over to iron sights.

So nowadays with production optics on the horizon, this would be the obvious solution seeing as open is generally super expensive.

What are thought on just having a gun with a dovetail mount (Shadow/Glock) and not using it to compete but just as a training aid? Too expensive of an aid? Or rather just go full production optics? Any thoughts on this topic in general also.

**Samizat45** · 17-10-2017, 09:16

Can you elaborate on the reasoning provided by the credible people for this theory ? Do these people have competitive experience with both red dots and iron sights ?

**La Morte** · 17-10-2017, 09:22

I have just put a red dot on my G 19. Done about 2000 rounds through is. Shot irons all my life. Here is what I experienced so far;
With the RD you see hand movements/shakes much more than irons. I can shoot faster with RD in a closer group due to tracking the dot all through recoil, where you lose your irons sometimes through recoil. Set up irons as well if you want RD, - better safe than sorry - if something goes wrong with RD. RD is expensive but it is the future. Lots of old hands will tell you NEVER! Why you want to go from RD to irons? Thats going backward not forward. If your eyes are getting old like mine, the RD is a pleasure. All the things you see on You Tube is true,- only one focal point to look at instead of 3, put the RD on the target and you are good to go, etc, etc. You can google that yourself. Main point for me is this; You will need to learn this new discipline, as with anything new. It is not a solution is you are a bad shot. I love my RD and mite put it on my G 26 as well in due cause, - for now I am learning to trust it and want to be 100% sure before I do - it is a lot of money. BTW I have the Vortex Viper. If you want to try it out PM me and I will see if we can meet at a range so you can shoot with it. I live in JHB ( Sodom and Gomorra :)

**phant1m** · 17-10-2017, 10:01

@samziat45: Lot of guys say that by shooting a dot you dont have to put as much focus on sights, also you can focus on trigger and other things. Also it magnifies bad trigger control and helps learning to shoot on the move. Also lot of top shooters started in open and then moved to standard/production/w.e.

I also seen the costing. Dang putting a dot can be upwards of 5k :(.

**shooty** · 17-10-2017, 10:10

When I started shooting years back. I focused on front and back sight and target. And you cant get them all in focus.
Then luckily a older shooter showed me to always focus on front sight.
And that was it. From there on out over the last 20 years. It served me well.
Focus on front sight and disconnect your trigger. Was what I was told.

Most guys want to start shooting fast. I see tons on range. Where they shoot at a 10m target as fast as they can to impress who ever. But my shotgun groups better then there shooting.

You cant practice trigger control shooting fast. Practice it shooting slow. Till you get it. Your muscle and brain will learn it. It will become like a muscle memory. Then only you start shooting faster and faster drills.
And the accuracy will stay. Shooters are trying to take short paths to success.

**La Morte** · 17-10-2017, 10:15

In my opinion so far, the cost is worth it if you have the money for it. One tip on choosing your RD, - make sure you choose one that have a back-up team in SA. I tried to order a Shield and after 9 weeks of excuses I went to Dave Sheer, they had it on in 10 minutes and the gunsmith helped me set it in. I was told, - any problem and Vortex will replace it in one day! Also after the Shield eventually arrived, it was the wrong RD and contrary to what they advertise, I still needed an special plate to mount it on my MOS. Garth at DS gives great service.

**BigT** · 17-10-2017, 10:19

Originally Posted by Samizat45

Can you elaborate on the reasoning provided by the credible people for this theory ? Do these people have competitive experience with both red dots and iron sights ?

I think one of the people who recommends it is a Rob something with an L :)

Makes you very aware of sight movement and helps you come to terms with it, being a big reason.

**Samizat45** · 17-10-2017, 10:30

Originally Posted by phant1m

@samziat45: Lot of guys say that by shooting a dot you dont have to put as much focus on sights, also you can focus on trigger and other things. Also it magnifies bad trigger control and helps learning to shoot on the move. Also lot of top shooters started in open and then moved to standard/production/w.e.

I also seen the costing. Dang putting a dot can be upwards of 5k :(.

If I take every National shooter that recently went to France (and USA in 2014 for that matter) I can only think of one who started with Open and is now considering a move to Std/Prod/Classic. Starting with Open and then moving to iron sights is a big ego-crushing move for most people and I am of the strong opinion that you need to start with iron sights (where nothing is easy) and you have to focus on sights and trigger control. I've seen too many shooters go to a red dot sight too quickly without mastering either iron sights or fundamental shooting skills and then wonder why they still remain mediocre shooters at best. Obviously if your'e a regular in the Super Squad at the Nationals you can do whatever you like.

Shooting tends to be holistic. All the elements count and more so in IPSC. You need to focus on serveral elements at the same time while under pressure. If you think that you can ignore one element (sight picture) to a degree to help you with another (trigger control) you are bulshitting yourself.

Spend that 5K on ammo and simultaneously commit to do a proper dry-fire program and then see how your trigger control and sight focus improves.

La Morte: I understand what you are saying about your eyes. I'm 53, shoot Standard and luckily found an optometrist who took the time to help me. I'm not sure which old guys say never because most of the old guys in IPSC shoot Open!
But the core part of phantm1's post concerned using a red dot to learn bettter trigger control so that is what I addressed.

**phant1m** · 17-10-2017, 10:38

So besides Rob L as mentioned by T, Max Michel mentioned it in an interview and then elaborated saying that JJ Racaza and whole slew of other shooters (cant remember names right now but will see if can find the interview) started with it and now when they moved over it has helped them a lot more. For obvious reasons I didnt mention Eric :D.

We not saying neglect fundamentals but it magnifies your shot calling and as T said you become very aware where that sight is moving. Also it stems from a lot of top instructors all mentioning the importance of trigger control. If you can find something that helps you improve that a lot faster is that not a good thing? [I am in no way saying a red dot will make you instantly super better, but rather a dot with training may very well help a ton].

**Samizat45** · 17-10-2017, 10:39

Originally Posted by BigT

I think one of the people who recommends it is a Rob something with an L :)

Makes you very aware of sight movement and helps you come to terms with it, being a big reason.

T,

Where did he recommend this ? I know he has some interesting theories and I saw that last video of this but I don't recall him specificallly recommending a red dot there.