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Thread: Jeanine's Story

  1. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by curious george View Post
    This thread is a bit tedious,but here is a question for our concerned overseas members.

    Whilst your passion for the topic is admirable and may nor may not necessarily be a 100% factually accurate,my question is this:

    Thank you for this concern for our well being,and that you are appalled enough into taking the time to care,no sarcasm!

    What are you doing besides posting on SA forums?

    Are you in fact actively lobbying the authorities,mobilizing public opinion on that side to put pressure on the regime on this side?

    PS:Your voices of concern holds much higher value than dodgy "journalists" with baggage looking for controversial airtime.
    I really don't get this. Would you rather our overseas members not give a damn about the ongoing slaughter of our farmers?

    Why is it a case of either they must be committed activists, or they must shut up? Why can't they be somewhere inbetween? And incidentally, from the discussion above I imagine those local activists who do try to lobby the UN and other international bodies about the gravity of the situation will also elicit criticism for their actions.

    The PC narrative on this very real issue is something I find very disturbing. Anyway, this is a topic one gets drawn into despite your best intentions, because it is so emotive.

    Nothing can be gained from arguing amongst ourselves on an internet forum. I just felt a sense of shame for leaving Tango Sierra to fight the good fight alone. I'm sure MANY others feel the same, but have the good sense to stay out of it and not turn this thread into the endless debate it is really not suited for.

    I would recommend closing this thread, because it is never going to end in happiness and agreement all round the table.

  2. #112
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    Default Re: Jeanine's Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomander View Post
    I really don't get this. Would you rather our overseas members not give a damn about the ongoing slaughter of our farmers?

    Why is it a case of either they must be committed activists, or they must shut up? Why can't they be somewhere inbetween? And incidentally, from the discussion above I imagine those local activists who do try to lobby the UN and other international bodies about the gravity of the situation will also elicit criticism for their actions.

    The PC narrative on this very real issue is something I find very disturbing. Anyway, this is a topic one gets drawn into despite your best intentions, because it is so emotive.

    Nothing can be gained from arguing amongst ourselves on an internet forum. I just felt a sense of shame for leaving Tango Sierra to fight the good fight alone. I'm sure MANY others feel the same, but have the good sense to stay out of it and not turn this thread into the endless debate it is really not suited for.

    I would recommend closing this thread, because it is never going to end in happiness and agreement all round the table.
    Comprehension skills are a thing.

    I am suggesting that they should rather expend their efforts and energy lobbying locally where they are,its pointless making a noise in here.

  3. #113

    Default Re: Jeanine's Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Tango Sierra View Post
    My "narrative" has factual support even if one reads the news badly. Almost exclusively, the demographic that tends the land and are killed - are whites. In an environment where government instituted racism in the form of BEE combined with the decay of faith in the police due to corruption, the disbandment of the Kommandos, the only real cohesive means that these farmers had left....
    Nope, I don't think I missed your point. The difference is that unlike you I just am not prepared to automatically read causation from correlation. I agree that the majority of commercial farmers being killed are (at least in all probability) white (whatever that term really means). But that doesn't mean that they are being killed BECAUSE they are white, which is the position you, Southern and others assume.

    I promise you that if you go to the Cape flats, the majority (if not all) the murder victims are coloureds. Do you think that they are being murdered BECAUSE they are coloured? I don't; I see that there are all kinds of other factors at play.

    If you or anyone can show me clear evidence that farmers are being murdered BECAUSE they are white and that its orchestrated, I'll entirely change my position.

    The narrative you posit makes two assumptions: (a) because the majority of commercial farmers killed are white, they are being killed BECAUSE they white and (b) all persons involved in the attacks are exclusively non-white.

    I just haven't seen the evidence yet that clearly supports that position. In fact, as you'll see Johan Burger says that his research shows that the majority of farm workers killed are black, nor white. How does one explain that in terms of a narrative where farmers are being killed BECAUSE they are white?

    To me, Southern, Hopkins et al are much the same as Bell Pottinger, just the other side of the coin - and you and others are cheering them along. It hurts farmers - of all colours - to deepen racial divisions in this country. But some people find it useful to their own ends.

    Disbanding the commandos was a disaster and governmental inaction in replacing it with something else is criminal. Pressure needs to be applied to get them to do something. But I promise you that playing the race card isn't going to get you anywhere.

    As for your view that BEE is racist, well that's a matter of perspective and not the subject at hand.






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  4. #114

    Default Re: Jeanine's Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomander View Post
    The PC narrative on this very real issue is something I find very disturbing. Anyway, this is a topic one gets drawn into despite your best intentions, because it is so emotive.
    Anomander, it's not a PC narrative. I'm just not seeing the evidence and I'm not prepared to accept a default narrative of racial genocide unless someone can clearly show it. See my post before this one.

    I think in absence of clear proof its harmful and not helpful for the reason that those applying that line are easily dismissed as "hysterical far right looney tunes"; that makes it *more* difficult to get something done about the problem, not less.

    Show me I'm missing clear evidence and I'll change my position. Neither TAU nor Afriforum have produced anything to show that I am wrong- at least as far as I am aware.

    Intellectual conservatism implies factual honesty and a rigorous aporoach to evidence; the exact opposite of what modern liberals do.
    Last edited by Wanderin' Zero; 11-02-2018 at 08:13.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  5. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderin' Zero View Post
    Anomander, it's not a PC narrative. I'm just not seeing the evidence and I'm not prepared to accept a default far right narrative of racial genocide unless someone can clearly show it. See my post before this one.

    Show me I'm missing clear evidence and I'll change my position. Neither TAU nor Afriforum have produced anything to show that I am wrong- at least as far as I am aware.


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    Fair enough. I accept that this is your genuine view. But I feel that there is an underlying pragmatism that influences this general narrative, (not necessarily directed at you, but in general).

    This pragmatism whispers to its adherents that the bigger goal of nation building is more important than the truth. That for as long as there remains ways to cast doubt on the mounting evidence that racial hatred plays at least a part in the gruesome, increasingly frequent murders of farmers, these doubts should be promoted, because the alternative leads to increased division, even if this alternative happens to be the exposition of the truth.

    I understand this position. It is based on a genuine desire to contribute to the achievement of the rainbow nation dream. Many great historical milestones were after all accomplished with some lies, smoothing of injustices, and other morally questionable actions along the way.

    In the context of this laudable goal, therefore, a widespread phenomenon of racially motivated murder and gruesome torture would naturally be an inconvenient truth. It would certainly not make the goal easier to achieve.

    I'm not one of those who believe that this is a politically orchestrated campaign of terror. I think these are individual actions by a wide range of independent criminals. But the racial hatred in their actions is clear. From the comments that survivors have reported, to the unnecessary brutality exercised on vulnerable victims, including old people and children.

    Now if you think about it, what is actually the more concerning of the two scenarios? One where a centrally organized political campaign is driving these actions, or one where a wellspring of racial hatred exists across a broad range of South Africans, for whatever historically justified reason, and it spontaneoualy finds expression in these situations where you have criminal individuals with naturally reduced inhibitions coupled with the opportunity to exercise these fantasies in isolated locations, with extended periods of time available to complete their acts?

    I would argue that the second scenario is the more alarming one. Because it speaks to a deeper, more pervasive problem in our society.

    So I can understand when people with good intentions desperately hope for a third option, which is that these are simply acts of general criminality with no racial motivation behind them. And will prefer this option for as long as there are ways to cast doubt on the alternative.

  6. #116

    Default Re: Jeanine's Story

    In the last 40 years I've seen some of the most horrific black on black violence you can imagine (when was the last time a white man was necklaced?); it usually had nothing to do with considerations of race but all sorts of other factors. What is it when a black South African policeman kicks a black Mozambican to death? It's something - quite similar to what often happens in farm murders - but it isn't racism. He's not kicking him to death because he's black.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

  7. #117
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    Default Re: Jeanine's Story

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderin' Zero View Post
    In the last 40 years I've seen some of the most horrific black on black violence you can imagine (when was the last time a white man was necklaced?); it usually had nothing to do with considerations of race but all sorts of other factors. What is it when a black South African policeman kicks a black Mozambican to death? It's something - quite similar to what often happens in farm murders - but it isn't racism. He's not kicking him to death because he's black.
    Isn't Xenophobia just another form of racism? In my opinion it is...

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  8. #118

    Default Re: Jeanine's Story

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    Isn't Xenophobia just another form of racism? In my opinion it is...
    Even if you accept that, what about the violence and brutality between black South Africans?

    See here and in particular para 6.5.

    https://www.csvr.org.za/docs/crime/c...ility_mode.pdf

    And here is the actual committee report.


    https://africacheck.org/wp-content/u...-July-2003.pdf

    That's the current (and very dated) state of what is really known.

    The question is this: Instead of engaging in sensationalism, wouldn't it be more useful to engage with government to renew the inquiry and take another more comprehensive look at matters?
    Last edited by Wanderin' Zero; 11-02-2018 at 10:14.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit: occidentis telum est.

    Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD)

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