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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Looking for Legal Thermal Weapon Sights

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceOfficer View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but is it not a case of NVG goodies being illegal to export from the US? Itar restriction, no?
    NVG gen core , gen 1 and gen 2+ fall under dual use and Gen 3 are ITAR if from USA. One can import ITAR if you have DCAC registration but can only sell ITAR to state entities. Military and LE. Dual use can be owned by civilians but you will need export permits from country of origin. Also you are in possesion in SA you are not allowed to re-export dual use products out of SA without DCAC approval.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Looking for Legal Thermal Weapon Sights

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxxyc View Post
    I find it HIGHLY improbably that sights will be illegal to use when you can buy thermal imaging cellphones these days. Who told you these things are illegal to own/import/etc?
    its our laws governing the control of sensitive items. Directorate for Conventional Arms Control

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Looking for Legal Thermal Weapon Sights

    Quote Originally Posted by StanCT View Post
    Contact Futurama, ECMTech, Bernhard Agencies, Euro Optic Africa.

    Futurama has a good selection.

    TacShac also have some products, I think.
    thanks i checked some online but no indication of classification. very interesting. if they are selling over the counter without permits then they must be dual use.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Looking for Legal Thermal Weapon Sights

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxxyc View Post
    I find it HIGHLY improbably that sights will be illegal to use when you can buy thermal imaging cellphones these days. Who told you these things are illegal to own/import/etc?
    these guys did. Do you know them ?

    http://www.armscor.co.za/wp-content/...olicy-2004.pdf

    or

    https://www.wassenaar.org/app/upload...tions-List.pdf

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Looking for Legal Thermal Weapon Sights

    Quote Originally Posted by StanCT View Post
    Contact Futurama, ECMTech, Bernhard Agencies, Euro Optic Africa.

    Futurama has a good selection.

    TacShac also have some products, I think.
    OMW WOW WOW!! , just spoke to some dealers , wont mention names. turns out one of which who's selling a confirmed ML1D model, over the counter and over the internet without even an end use statement (the basic requirement for selling any DU thermal product in SA). The dealer had no idea whatsoever about the controls on ML items. Says he has export permits from country of origin but didn't know he had to be licensed this side and isn't allowed to sell to civilians without permits.
    Says hes sold plenty to customers, which means you've got all these end users out there totally unaware they are illegally in possession of controlled items. This is serious stuff. Can you imagine , the dealer if apprehended will have to recall and account for every ML product they've put out there without permits. Seems some of our industry has no idea about ML list thermal scope regulations and the public are not being informed about the regulations. There needs to be a sticky on this site warning dealers and the public that they are in contravention of our local armaments and controlled items acts if they market, trade or purchase ML items without permits. These contraventions carry jail sentences as penalties and the poor buyers don't even know. Its madness. its like selling firearms without licences and not telling your customer they require one. I'm gobsmacked at the possible extent of this. From calling around this morning , every second dealer is dealing or has access to source and supply thermal scopes. Absolutely no controls in place and there's reputable dealers and companies dealing freely in these without the faintest idea they are contravening the act. How many of these have now ended up in the wrong hands, banned countries etc? Its no wonder SA is viewed as a high risk country by the overseas licensing authorities like US dept of State. SA could right now be a major source of the proliferation of these items into terrorist states.

    ***A NOTE TO ALL DEALERS AND PROSPECTIVE BUYERS OF THERMAL WEAPON SIGHTS - IF YOU ARE CONSIDERING ENGAGING IN THE HANDLING OF SUCH PRODUCTS IN ANY WAY, YOU MUST OBTAIN THE CLASSIFICATION OF THE ITEM BEFORE DOING SO AND BE FAMILIAR WITH THE LAWS AROUND THE HANDLING OF SUCH PRODUCTS. IF IT'S ML CLASSIFIED THEN YOU CANNOT TOUCH IT, NOT EVEN SEND OUT A BROCHURE OR ADVERTISE ON THE INTERNET OR ANY PUBLICATION UNLESS YOU HAVE THE NECESSARY PERMITS AND ARE REGISTERED WITH THE CONTROLLING AUTHORITIES. YOUR DEALER MUST PRODUCE A CLASSIFICATION CERTIFICATE IN WRITING AND THEIR PERMIT TO TRADE IN SUCH ITEMS IF THEY ARE ML. IF THEY CAN'T BECAUSE THE GOODS COME FROM CHINA FOR INSTANCE WHO DON'T CLASSIFY, IT STILL HAS TO BE CLASSIFIED LOCALLY BY DCAC TECHNICAL TEAM BEFORE YOU CAN TRADE IN OR OWN IT. OUR LOCAL LAWS APPLY AND NOT THOSE OF COUNTRY OF ORIGIN. IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE TO THE LAW.***

    Guys , I'm appealing to anyone in the industry who reads this to be compliant or sooner or later all of us will not be able to obtain overseas export licenses for these products. We will soon be on an international watch list not to mention the deep trouble you will find yourselves in if caught dealing or owning these items without permits.

    Surely a firearms industry controlling body should reach out to the dealers and public and educate them on this???

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Looking for Legal Thermal Weapon Sights

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxxyc View Post
    I find it HIGHLY improbably that sights will be illegal to use when you can buy thermal imaging cellphones these days. Who told you these things are illegal to own/import/etc?
    I was told by a reputable wholesaler, after I enquired about a particular scope on their list and imported from Germany, that they have removed it from their list because Germany will not permit sales of weapons mounted thermal imaging equipment to SA. Something to do with some international law/ ruling.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Looking for Legal Thermal Weapon Sights

    Quote Originally Posted by TSG View Post
    I was told by a reputable wholesaler, after I inquired about a particular scope on their list and imported from Germany, that they have removed it from their list because Germany will not permit sales of weapons mounted thermal imaging equipment to SA. Something to do with some international law/ ruling.
    100% correct. I went through the same learning curve some years back. Its the Wassenaar Act, of which Germany and SA are part of. All sensitive items must be classified in terms of Wassenaar and local and international laws apply around the handling of such items. All the thermal scopes I've seen up to now are classified ML1D or ML15D. Hoping to find otherwise. Even a low cost Chinese product I submitted to DCAC came back as ML1D which is the international Munitions List category for thermal scopes for sports and hunting. ML15 is the thermal scopes for military use. If it is found out that the German supplier had supplied the items to another country where the proliferation of these items has not been controlled in terms of Wassenaar, they will be charged and risk their manufacturing licenses being withdrawn. Hence many overseas manufacturers under Wassenaar or ITAR, wont supply to civilians abroad.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Looking for Legal Thermal Weapon Sights

    Quote Originally Posted by phils View Post
    OMW WOW WOW!! , just spoke to some dealers , wont mention names. ...

    Surely a firearms industry controlling body should reach out to the dealers and public and educate them on this???
    So you want the CFR to play their magic on sights as well?

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Looking for Legal Thermal Weapon Sights

    Quote Originally Posted by A-R View Post
    So you want the CFR to play their magic on sights as well?
    sorry i worded it wrong suggesting a firearms control body. since it doesn't fall under CFR , it falls under DCAC who handle licences and permits on behalf of NCACC. Whats needed is an established voice in the industry like a gun owners association who can educate dealers and potential buyers on the subject.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Looking for Legal Thermal Weapon Sights

    This is why we can't have nice things... damn terrrists

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