R4's stolen from SANDF base

[SSP]

How different are the court systems comparing it to a non-military court? For eg. is the state prosecutor now military personnel?

I am interested to know how different this will play in terms of court proceedings compared to a non-military (civilian type court)

Everyone involved is military as far as I know. I think that the accused can get civilian counsel though.

I think that the rules are different but the same standards of natural justice must be met.

They have a bigger book to throw in the sense that they can also convict for military disciplinary code offences too.

It's an interesting question, and I don't know that much about it. It's not really a subject much covered in ordinary legal education. Typically you will get taught the ins and outs in service much like you learn the civilian rules during articles.

[SSP]

It is not "absurd".

For all too long incompetent officials have allowed the law abiding public to bear the effects of their incompetence (and excessive belief that hardened criminals can somehow be "reformed"). For you to suggest that the tried and tested route should continue to be followed is, frankly put, the reason why people no longer have much faith in the criminal justice system!

Where I say that something needs to be done, I mean that we need to substantially revamp the status quo which, in the majority of cases, isn't really working in SA.

It absolutely is absurd to suggest that a public official exercising his discretion properly be held accountable for the actions of another person. If the discretion was exercised unlawfully then there are mechanisms to deal with that. Complaining about it in general, non-specific terms on the internet is not one of those mechanisms.

If a magistrate unlawfully exercises his discretion and releases an accused on bail then a complaint can be laid with the Magistrates Commission. If damages are caused as a result then the Minister of Justice can be sued. What more do you want?

So what are you suggesting instead? It's all well and good complaining about something, it's another thing entirely having something to contribute. Ask the EFF.

[ror123]

Everyone involved is military as far as I know. I think that the accused can get civilian counsel though.

I think that the rules are different but the same standards of natural justice must be met.

They have a bigger book to throw in the sense that they can also convict for military disciplinary code offences too.

It's an interesting question, and I don't know that much about it. It's not really a subject much covered in ordinary legal education. Typically you will get taught the ins and outs in service much like you learn the civilian rules during articles.

Thanks for the explanation

[Tayls]

It absolutely is absurd to suggest that a public official exercising his discretion properly be held accountable for the actions of another person. If the discretion was exercised unlawfully then there are mechanisms to deal with that.

. Instead of just suggesting that all views which are different from your own must be those of idiots and illogical, perhaps read and try to spend some time to consider what others are actually are saying.

I didn't suggest that an official exercising his/her discretion properly should be held accountable. I instead suggested that we need to re-look at the status quo since it is clearly not working in the SA context.

In addition and by way of an example only, where a bartender continues to feed alcohol to a clearly inebriated patron who has been threatening to drive home and who then proceeds to do so (thereby endangering and injuring/killing other road users), there is surely some culpability there (of course, with the necessary proof being provided during a trial)...

What's more, even where the official exercised their discretion unlawfully, the "mechanisms" you refer to sadly don't reverse the irreparable affects of a rape or the murder of a family member (and other serious criminal acts like a home invasion etc). I was simply suggesting that we need to carefully re-look at how we have traditionally done things (because it isn't working). See the links to examples of repeat offenders who are caught for a crime, charged and then released on bail to go back and commit the exact same crime a couple of days later (not months or years later).... or, in many cases, they go on to commit crimes which are way worse and more violent (like murder in the link below).

Link: https://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/news...nders-30113154

Are you suggesting that the bureaucratic process somehow brings back the dead family member or helps the raped person overcome the irreparable affects of their ordeal (which will be with them for the rest of their lives)?

See especially the following comments from the article:

De Villiers estimates 90% of crimes in the area are committed by repeat offenders, a number he thinks might go down if suspects had a more difficult time obtaining bail.

“I’ve seen people who are arrested for armed robbery be out on bail seven times over,” he said. He believes criminals have a pattern of escalating their crimes as they gain experience.

On the CPF front, we have experienced the exact same issue in one of our nearby nature reserves. A criminal gang has been targeting joggers, cyclists and tourists and their MO has been escalating and getting way more violent over time, more recently including, pistol whipping victims and, later, stabbing victims. When a few members of the gang were eventually caught by an AR company, they were charged and then let out on bail... (and they had prior convictions for similar crimes and, in one case, the perpetrator was actually out on bail for the exact same crime at the time).

Bail in my experience is also often set at ridiculously low levels (as in R300 in the case of one of the above perpetrators). I mean, come on!!!

IMHO, the attitude that everybody has the same rights and is somehow entitled to bail in the vast majority of cases regardless of the circumstances or degree of violence used to commit the crime, will eventually result in the murder of one or more of the victims in our nature reserve. And then what...

There are mechanisms in place to address incompetence on the part of the public officials that you mentioned. However, a degree of gross negligence must be demonstrated.

See my comments and examples above and linked below. You appear to be happy with the "mechanisms" and, if I was to hazard a guess, you are a person working in the criminal justice system, perhaps a state prosecutor, an attorney etc. In your experience, would you honestly say that these "mechanisms" are used successfully and, if so, are the negligent officials ever actually removed from office (so that their poor performance and terrible decision-making never adversely affects other law abiding members of society)? Perhaps I am wrong in my views here, but I seriously doubt that this is the case and, if it happens, would suspect that this only happens in a small minority of cases where allegations of gross negligence are brought. Yes?

The failure points in the system as I see it.

Police who arrest too early, don't investigate properly and don't follow prosecutor's investigation instructions.

Prosecutors who don't work as a team with the police, who don't manage their police, their dockets and their witnesses.

Magistrates who don't know the law, are too timid to make decisions and who don't run their courtrooms effectively.

A lot of the problems come down to pressure of work and money. There isn't enough of anything except work, of which there is too much.
All the cogs in the machine need to be paid more to attract better people. Those who don't perform must be cut.
Performance must be prized over the optics of transformation. Cream, regardless of colour, rises to the top.
The institutional culture must be reset. This is true of the military and the police too. The post-94 members inherited a toxic legacy of institutional inertia and arrogance which has led to there being no real development in training for decades.

. This is essentially what I am trying to get at. We have experienced some clear examples of the above where we (as the innocent victims) did not get justice because the system is perhaps too focussed on "transformation" or because there are too many incompetent, perhaps poorly paid (and thus, not the sharpest) police officials, state prosecutors and magistrates. Sadly this means that:--

a) only a relatively small percentage of the criminals who actually commit crime actually get caught;
b) of those criminals caught, only a small percentage of them actually get brought to trial;
c) of those brought to trial, only a small number of them actually get successfully convicted and actually serve prison time (and of these, a number of them then get let out early on parole).

Link to article: https://city-press.news24.com/News/r...apsed-20191021

Quote from article supporting my comments and conclusions above: Law enforcement in South Africa has all but collapsed, with the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) this week stating in its annual report that prosecution rates for serious offences have been as low as 2%.

In addition, poor investigations and botch-ups by prosecutors have resulted in a historic low point: an astronomical 103 760 criminal cases have simply been withdrawn, 9% more than in the previous year.
And, to crown it all, courts succeeded in finalising 14% fewer cases, despite an increase in plea agreements and alternative dispute resolutions.
The situation is so chaotic that the country’s criminal court sat for only three hours and four minutes a day, on average

The greatly feared category of “trio crimes” – vehicle hijackings, home robberies and robberies at businesses – appears to go almost entirely unpunished. According to the police’s annual report, 16 026 vehicle hijackings were reported. In the same period, the NPA managed to prosecute just 3% of that number. Only 382 convictions were secured –amounting to 2.3% of the hijackings reported in that year.

In the past financial year, 22 431 people were robbed in their homes. In the same period, the NPA prosecuted only 1 602 home robbery cases. Only 1 045 convictions were secured, amounting to just 4.6% of the total number of crimes reported in the same period.

• Less than 20% of the estimated 21 000 cases of murder committed in the country annually end up in court.
• A total of 52 450 sexual offences were reported to the police in the past financial year. The NPA secured 4 724 convictions in this period.

What this means for society is that the vast majority of criminals get to walk, or get let out on bail (again) and/or are paroled (again)... and, more and more, it is becoming clear that the criminals know this (so there is absolutely no real disincentive to committing crime). Now what about the rights of law abiding people and the rights of the victims and their families???

Link to the issue of repeat offenders: https://www.sanews.gov.za/features/s...peat-offenders

Quote from that article: We all need to look at how we can stop this. I visited Pollsmoor yesterday where I met with 30 young girls aged between 16 and 20. About 90 percent of these young women were repeat offenders," she said.

Link to article about massive deficiencies with repeat sexual offenders: https://www.politicsweb.co.za/commen...ex-offenders--

Quote: There are currently no DNA samples recorded for over 46 000 convicted sexual offenders.

While national government drags its feet on this issue, potential repeat offenders are being released back into society, while SAPS remains with no means of tracking whether these individuals are repeating the sexual offences they were originally convicted of.

In summary, perhaps we need to look at mandatory minimum sentencing, especially for violent crimes and/or crimes where a weapon is used. The USA seems to use the "three strikes" process as part of their criminal justice system rather successfully. Perhaps we need to look at this.

Finally and in extreme cases and for very violent, repeat offenders, perhaps the death penalty needs to be an option since this would protect society from such monsters and thereby totally remove the risk of such criminals re-offending and ruining other lives...

PS. I am well-aware that this is a contentious issue, but feel that it needs to be brought back onto the table and discussed/considered as a potential ultimate disincentive to criminals.

[Zuku]

When there is a military court martial case you are allowed to have a civilian law representative.

Now for info I dont have the answer to. In this case if the accused is tried by military court and get a military judgement, say theft of state property, and send to military jail will that ever reflect in his civilian criminal record. I dont think so. So it would then be better if the Military only deal with the "code of conduct and loss of military equipment" part and let the state deal with the "theft" part so his criminal record file can get bigger.

[SSP]

. Instead of just suggesting that all views which are different from your own must be those of idiots and illogical, perhaps read and try to spend some time to consider what others are actually are saying.

You are conflating the position with the person. At no time did I do what you suggested.

In addition and by way of an example only, where a bartender continues to feed alcohol to a clearly inebriated patron who has been threatening to drive home and who then proceeds to do so (thereby endangering and injuring/killing other road users), there is surely some culpability there (of course, with the necessary proof being provided during a trial)...

This is already a crime as far as I can recall. At least in Gauteng. I expect that all of the provincial acts and regulations are the same or similar.

What's more, even where the official exercised their discretion unlawfully, the "mechanisms" you refer to sadly don't reverse the irreparable affects of a rape or the murder of a family member (and other serious criminal acts like a home invasion etc).

Of course they don't. Neither does incarceration.

Are you suggesting that the bureaucratic process somehow brings back the dead family member or helps the raped person overcome the irreparable affects of their ordeal (which will be with them for the rest of their lives)?

Again with the absurdity. By the same token, the harshest punishment meted out by the most effective and well run justice system in the universe won't do that either.

See especially the following comments from the article:

De Villiers estimates 90% of crimes in the area are committed by repeat offenders, a number he thinks might go down if suspects had a more difficult time obtaining bail.

“I’ve seen people who are arrested for armed robbery be out on bail seven times over,” he said. He believes criminals have a pattern of escalating their crimes as they gain experience.

I expect that you will find this experience worldwide.

On the CPF front, we have experienced the exact same issue in one of our nearby nature reserves. A criminal gang has been targeting joggers, cyclists and tourists and their MO has been escalating and getting way more violent over time, more recently including, pistol whipping victims and, later, stabbing victims. When a few members of the gang were eventually caught by an AR company, they were charged and then let out on bail... (and they had prior convictions for similar crimes and, in one case, the perpetrator was actually out on bail for the exact same crime at the time).

Bail in my experience is also often set at ridiculously low levels (as in R300 in the case of one of the above perpetrators). I mean, come on!!!

IMHO, the attitude that everybody has the same rights and is somehow entitled to bail in the vast majority of cases regardless of the circumstances or degree of violence used to commit the crime, will eventually result in the murder of one or more of the victims in our nature reserve. And then what...

Were you in court? Did you hear the argument surrounding bail and the amount set? What were the accused charged with?

Here is the thing though - everyone does have the same rights. Criminals, as in those who have been convicted of a crime, have their rights curtailed.

Accused persons have the same rights as you and I including the right to due process, fair trial and to apply for bail.

That is called democracy. Constitutionally protected rights and liberties, with their concomitant obligations, are the only way that our species have been able to come up with limiting the power of our own governments, who by their nature, are power hungry and grasp at it wherever possible.

For that sake of debate, if persons were going to have their rights curtailed who would decide? What would be the criteria?

See my comments and examples above and linked below. You appear to be happy with the "mechanisms" and, if I was to hazard a guess, you are a person working in the criminal justice system, perhaps a state prosecutor, an attorney etc. In your experience, would you honestly say that these "mechanisms" are used successfully and, if so, are the negligent officials ever actually removed from office (so that their poor performance and terrible decision-making never adversely affects other law abiding members of society)? Perhaps I am wrong in my views here, but I seriously doubt that this is the case and, if it happens, would suspect that this only happens in a small minority of cases where allegations of gross negligence are brought. Yes?

I fail to see your point. As it happens I am an attorney, but I do not practice criminal law at all. I have also never been a prosecutor or otherwise employed in the system. I have no interest in the matter other than to attempt to highlight the fact that before we change the system, we need to fix its parts. Are you suggesting bias? In the sense that because I am part of the system, albeit on the extreme periphery, that I am somehow driven to defend it.

Indeed, there have been occasions where magistrates are sanctioned, removed from office and sued. This isn't enough for you though so it doesn't really matter.

The thing is, in order for the process to work it takes someone with an interest to lay a complaint and to prosecute that complaint. This takes time, effort, energy and money. South Africans, especially when it comes to matters that don't directly effect them are lazy and cheap.

Did you lay a complaint about the magistrate who set bail for the accused you referred to?

. This is essentially what I am trying to get at. We have experienced some clear examples of the above where we (as the innocent victims) did not get justice because the system is perhaps too focussed on "transformation" or because there are too many incompetent, perhaps poorly paid (and thus, not the sharpest) police officials, state prosecutors and magistrates. Sadly this means that:--

a) only a relatively small percentage of the criminals who actually commit crime actually get caught;
b) of those criminals caught, only a small percentage of them actually get brought to trial;
c) of those brought to trial, only a small number of them actually get successfully convicted and actually serve prison time (and of these, a number of them then get let out early on parole).

This not a feature unique to our justice system. Again this is not a failure of the system but of the components.

In summary, perhaps we need to look at mandatory minimum sentencing, especially for violent crimes and/or crimes where a weapon is used. The USA seems to use the "three strikes" process as part of their criminal justice system rather successfully. Perhaps we need to look at this.

Finally and in extreme cases and for very violent, repeat offenders, perhaps the death penalty needs to be an option since this would protect society from such monsters and thereby totally remove the risk of such criminals re-offending and ruining other lives...

PS. I am well-aware that this is a contentious issue, but feel that it needs to be brought back onto the table and discussed/considered as a potential ultimate disincentive to criminals.

The irony is that you clearly have no trust in the state or the system but seem happy to propose that they have the power of life and death over the citizenry. To be clear, I am in principle a proponent of the death penalty.

The death penalty is not a deterrent. It certainly won't be here until the detection, arrest and successful prosecution rate goes up. Implementing it, and enhanced sentencing provisions before repairing the individual components in the system is putting the cart before the horse.

Do you think that the pre-94 justice system worked?

[Ωhm]

In summary, perhaps we need to look at mandatory minimum sentencing, especially for violent crimes and/or crimes where a weapon is used. The USA seems to use the "three strikes" process as part of their criminal justice system rather successfully. Perhaps we need to look at this.

Would you say that mandatory minimum sentencing is working out well for them? I'd argue that it does more harm than good. Remember, the point of incarceration is not to punish, it is to separate the criminal from society and rehabilitate, then reintegrate them into society as (hopefully) a productive member. Mandatory minimum sentencing is really just a strict time out, failing the incarcerated and society by only achieving 1 of the 3 objectives.

Finally and in extreme cases and for very violent, repeat offenders, perhaps the death penalty needs to be an option since this would protect society from such monsters and thereby totally remove the risk of such criminals re-offending and ruining other lives...

Giving the state the power to execute it's own citizens is probably the dangerous concession that can be made. We all know governments are self serving and don't give up powers given to them, even if they're not using them. Who's to say that capital punishment won't be used to silence dissidents, whistle blowers, conscientious objectors, political opposition, etc? Even if it is only used as punishment for murder, what happens when the state fucks up, if the accused is framed, or they need a sacrificial lamb to keep satiate the crowds blood lust?

There are no do overs, no reparations that can be made to the wrongfully executed. Do you really trust any government with that power?

PS. I am well-aware that this is a contentious issue, but feel that it needs to be brought back onto the table and discussed/considered as a potential ultimate disincentive to criminals.

And that right there is the problem. Typically, people who make the most noise about bringing back capital punishment are being driven by anger, not logic.

[SoldierMan]

The three strikes law in the US is in some states absolutely terrible. The three strikes can be for very minimal crimes, so much so that if you only commit one "bad" crime you could be sentenced for like 15 years for an otherwise 1 or 2 year crime because of three strikes.

If used it should only be for serious crimes, NOT the way the US is currently implementing it. Then it's an unfair system and a terrible idea.

Who said: "Fairness is what justice really is."

[JhbBoy]

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/feature...weapons-theft/

Military justice, in common with its civilian counterpart, is not generally known for speed as evidenced in the theft of weapons from a SA National Defence Force (SANDF) base in Centurion.
The theft was uncovered in December 2019 thanks to information supplied by Democratic Alliance (DA) shadow defence and military veterans minister Kobus Marais. Nine months later he told defenceWeb the initial urgency around the case was no longer there and he would be asking questions of Defence and Military Veterans Minister Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula.
He said at the time the silence around the Tek Base weapons theft was another indicator of poor discipline in the SANDF.
“The perpetrators must be held accountable as must those on whose watch the thefts, reportedly over an 80 day period, took place,” he said then.
This week he shared the Ministerial response to his questions on the issue with defenceWeb.
Mapisa-Nqakula informed Marais charges have been brought against 14 SANDF personnel, without identifying which service or unit they are in. They will, on an as yet unnamed date, appear in “the Court of a Senior Military Judge for trial” on charges of housebreaking and theft and an alternative charge of negligent loss of firearms.
All 18 R4 assault rifles stolen from Tek Base have, according to Mapisa-Nqakula, been recovered. Two of three 9 mm pistols stolen were also recovered and details of the still missing third were “circulated”.
The weapons were traced to and found in Kwa-Thema, Springs and Benoni township Daveyton in eastern Gauteng.
After the theft, 27 SA Army Engineer Formation personnel were questioned by military police and 12 charged with housebreaking and theft, alternatively, negligent loss of firearms. On 27 December 2019 they first appeared at a Military Court in Thaba Tshwane. On 18 August 2020 charges against seven suspects were withdrawn.

[MSW2]

Cream, regardless of colour, rises to the top.

Depends on the environment. In a pail of milk, yes. In a septic tank it is not cream that rises to the top.