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  1. #1
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    Default Webley & Scott 12 gauge SS Hammer gun

    I would be really happy if anybody could assist with any specific information on this shotgun. It belonged to my great grandfather, and worked hard on the farm.











  2. #2
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    Default Re: Webley & Scott 12 gauge SS Hammer gun

    First information I'll give is that you shouldn't fire it.

    Overall condition is not that great and specifically I have concerns about the way the rib has been welded back into place. If a rib separates from the barrels it is normally a bad sign to start with, and welding it back into place the way it was done makes it look like it was done in the farm workshop, not by a gunsmith.

    The proof mark visible on the water table is British (predictably) and very probably from the Birmingham proof house. I'd have to look it up and compare to the London one - I can't remember offhand if there's a difference.

    The most important proof marks are on the underside of the barrel in the chamber area, on the so-called barrel "flats". If you can post a decent picture of that area we should be able to come up with more information.

    In terms of value, the financial value would be very low - a couple of hundred rand, but it would probably have far greater value to you as something owned by your great-grandfather. You might want to consider having it formally deactivated with the correct paperwork so that you can openly display it somewhere.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Webley & Scott 12 gauge SS Hammer gun

    Thanks a lot for the feedback BBCT

    I don't have the gun nearby to inspect for other markings, but I will keep it in mind next time I visit my parents.

    I have little to no ambition of firing it, for the exact reasons stated. My dad told me that they did shoot it in the farm when he was young, and it kicks like a mule. I do belief that it will get most value from being cleaned up as much as possible and converted to a display piece. I just wanted to get an idea of age, and could not narrow it down with my own searches.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Webley & Scott 12 gauge SS Hammer gun

    PM me your email address and I'll send you a list of proofmarks and when they were in use. By looking at the particular combination of proofmarks one can get an idea of when the gun was proofed. You'll probably be able to do this yourself. Sometimes by looking at the particular features of the gun and comparing patent dates for those features you can narrow it down further. Sometimes other things like the address stamped on the top rib also helps if the manufacturer changed addresses and the date of that address change is known.

    Great site for this sort of information is https://www.internetgunclub.com/

  5. #5

    Default Re: Webley & Scott 12 gauge SS Hammer gun

    It has pre-1904 Birmingham proof marks. So it dates from between 1897 (amalgamation of P Webley & Son and W C Scott) and 1904. They will be Black Powder proofs, certainly not Nitro. However, firing it is not a good idea, as BBCT said.

    Peter

  6. #6

    Default Re: Webley & Scott 12 gauge SS Hammer gun

    Quote Originally Posted by High Power View Post
    It has pre-1904 Birmingham proof marks. So it dates from between 1897 (amalgamation of P Webley & Son and W C Scott) and 1904. They will be Black Powder proofs, certainly not Nitro. However, firing it is not a good idea, as BBCT said.

    Peter
    That is a nice piece of investigation work right there!

    The rebounding hammers are also a clue. From what I have read, the rebound hammer patent (Bardell and Powell) is from 1866, and they were popular well into the 1900's.

    It also

  7. #7

    Default Re: Webley & Scott 12 gauge SS Hammer gun

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet View Post
    That is a nice piece of investigation work right there!
    Well thank you. However, it didn't take any investigation, I know quite a lot about some things!

    Peter

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Webley & Scott 12 gauge SS Hammer gun

    Quote Originally Posted by High Power View Post
    It has pre-1904 Birmingham proof marks. So it dates from between 1897 (amalgamation of P Webley & Son and W C Scott) and 1904. They will be Black Powder proofs, certainly not Nitro. However, firing it is not a good idea, as BBCT said.

    Peter
    Thank you Peter for producing a perfect example of the investigation that I was being too lazy to do myself!


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Webley & Scott 12 gauge SS Hammer gun

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet View Post
    That is a nice piece of investigation work right there!

    The rebounding hammers are also a clue. From what I have read, the rebound hammer patent (Bardell and Powell) is from 1866, and they were popular well into the 1900's.

    It also
    I was wondering when Sweet would come along........ ;-)

    I also noticed the rebounding hammers. And this is easy for me to give some additional feedback on. When I'm feeling particularly inspired, I search the internet (Holts website is a treasure trove) and assorted books that cross my path for patents on English guns and have been compiling them into a list for possibly some future unknown reference purpose. I try to record basic details on the patent, where I find the info and sometimes even find photos of guns displaying the features of those particular patents and sometimes I even find scanned copies of the patents themselves. A lot of the information is a bit difficult to verify and some of it is contradictory but I find it quite interesting anyway

    Anyway, that is just background and the point of it is that in my list I have the following "rebounding" patents:
    1867: Thomas Horsley rebounding strikes patent. No patent number
    1867: John Stanton's rebounding lock patent. Patent number 367
    1868: John Stokes rebounding locks. No patent number
    1869: John Stanton's second rebounding lock patent. No patent number
    1877: John Stanton’s third rebounding lock patent. No patent number
    1919: Taylor & Gardner (W-R) rebounding mechanism fixing hammer and bridle for coil spring operated hammer lock. Patent number 150864

    I don't have copies of any of the above list or photos, so am unable to provide any more insight but I'm sure more info is out there somewhere.

    Interestingly, I don't have Barden & Powell 1866 in my list but I will add it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Webley & Scott 12 gauge SS Hammer gun

    That is nice info, BBCT

    Here is the link to the article that I used as a source:
    https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/feature...ammerguns-7921

    It also speaks about the three Stanton designs in your list.

    "The man most often credited with its invention was the well-known Wolverhampton lockmaker John Stanton. But Stanton?s was not the first mechanism to receive protection by a patent. That honour belongs to William Bardell and William Powell from Aston, Birmingham, with patent No. 2287 of 6 September 1866. However, Stanton undoubtedly takes the credit for the type of rebounding lock almost universally adopted by the English gun trade and found on most hammerguns encountered nowadays. Stanton produced three designs."

    Also wanted to ask....that Horsley on your list is that the same dude who built that 20ga hammergun that you found for my big brother?

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