Calling A-R need to chat about 303 Scout Rifle concept

[MSW2]

I would like to cut back to 16 and if possible look at integral suppressor.

I wanted to do a reflex but the guy making the suppressors had stopped doing them. Was bitching about barrels and heat, not that I was going to be shooting fast enough for that. Something for the future if I feel like it.

[A-R]

I have seen a few .303's cut down,suppressed and fitted with R4 folding stock used as "bakkie" rifles. Maybe an option if you want it as compact as possible?

The R4-lookalike folding stock conversion kits were built by Bruce Wentzel of Hire Arms / Valley Trading. They differ a bit from the R4 item and the knuckle is configured to fold to the left. With open sights they work decently, but with a scope they definitely need some sort of raised comb. The lack of a soft recoil pad tends to amplify the recoil of a light rifle. The stock is also not quick to deploy. Consider carefully.

If I have it correct, the volume of a suppressor makes a big difference in its performance, together with the shape of the baffles. My plan is to get a thick, short suppressor. It just needs to take the worst decibels off the shot.

This is true. However, the distance between the muzzle and the front baffle of the suppressor is also important. Some makers have developed the reflex suppressor further than others. Chose carefully here.

Some of the modular designs allow you to add or remove a few baffles. This may be worthwhile in this particular application.

[A-R]

I would like to cut back to 16 and if possible look at integral suppressor.

An integral type suppressor would normally sit inside the fore-end or hand guard. The typical SMLE does not have enough space available for that IMO. An AR-type aluminium handguard should accomodate a decent can, but you don't seem to lean in that direction at present.

I have seen integrally suppressed 22LR rifles, that simply looked like they came with a bull barrel. The small internal volume required for a .22LR suppressor makes that feasible. I don't think the same concept can be applied to a medium-calibre center fire. They require much more internal volume in the suppressor.

[MSW2]

The R4-lookalike folding stock conversion kits were built by Bruce Wentzel of Hire Arms / Valley Trading. They differ a bit from the R4 item and the knuckle is configured to fold to the left. With open sights they work decently, but with a scope they definitely need some sort of raised comb. The lack of a soft recoil pad tends to amplify the recoil of a light rifle. The stock is also not quick to deploy. Consider carefully.



This is true. However, the distance between the muzzle and the front baffle of the suppressor is also important. Some makers have developed the reflex suppressor further than others. Chose carefully here.

Some of the modular designs allow you to add or remove a few baffles. This may be worthwhile in this particular application.

Thanks A-R. Forgot to mention the extra bit of hight when I extend the stock.

[treeman]

Yes A-R, you are correct in saying that the specifically designed suppressors that fit into hand guard or built along barrel work, but they are not common, the most suppressors of this type that the average guy thinks of when subject is mentioned are pretty useless visual pleaser items that have little to no suppressor value ?
It is not easy to get the required volume required for a 30 cal to work (not sub sonic) hidden away in a aesthetically pleasing manner on a standard shape, design rifle or pistol.
Perhaps I am missing a something here ?

[treeman]

This is true. However, the distance between the muzzle and the front baffle of the suppressor is also important. Some makers have developed the reflex suppressor further than others. Chose carefully here.

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This must also be kept in mind when the silencer is engineered, these short barreled rifles can be very hard on aluminium suppressor parts, I put a full steel suppressor on the .303 simply because of the lessons learnt on the .458. It got shot apart in less than a 100 shots and then a few times there after, I am assuming its the differance in muzzle blast hitting it at 16 " and 22 " that destroyed the fittings.

[Ds J]

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Like reduce your usable barrel length even further down to 12 inch to replace the lost 4 inch's with a suppressor that looks better than it works ?

Treeman, when is a 303 barrel too short for regular work?

Maybe I should rephrase: why should one not cut down a barrel to 12" or 14" ?

A true scout rifle is able of 1MOA @ 100m. In my case, I want a very short rifle to handle easily in a bakkie's cab. It would mostly be used on shots out to 200m, and I plan to use it for jackal and other larger pest animals on farms. I would not need pinpoint accuracy, although it would help much.

[treeman]

Treeman, when is a 303 barrel too short for regular work?

Maybe I should rephrase: why should one not cut down a barrel to 12" or 14" ?

A true scout rifle is able of 1MOA @ 100m. In my case, I want a very short rifle to handle easily in a bakkie's cab. It would mostly be used on shots out to 200m, and I plan to use it for jackal and other larger pest animals on farms. I would not need pinpoint accuracy, although it would help much.

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I will when I get home if I still have my velocity papers, but I know that after about 16 inch you might as well start to consider using a 357 Black hawk

[TStone]

Treeman, when is a 303 barrel too short for regular work?

Maybe I should rephrase: why should one not cut down a barrel to 12" or 14" ?

A true scout rifle is able of 1MOA @ 100m. In my case, I want a very short rifle to handle easily in a bakkie's cab. It would mostly be used on shots out to 200m, and I plan to use it for jackal and other larger pest animals on farms. I would not need pinpoint accuracy, although it would help much.

This data is for the 308 win but will give you a rough idea. First link for 28" - 16.5". Second link for 15" - 6" barrels.

https://rifleshooter.com/2014/12/308...ty-28-to-16-5/

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/308...-308-bolt-gun/

[treeman]

This data is for the 308 win but will give you a rough idea. First link for 28" - 16.5". Second link for 15" - 6" barrels.

https://rifleshooter.com/2014/12/308...ty-28-to-16-5/

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/308...-308-bolt-gun/

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Interesting and informative reading. So with a 12 " barrel you will be at about 1700fps at about 200 m ?

I know that I wanted 2500fps as a minimum muzzle velocity for both the .303 and the .458. The .458 velocity was not that critical as i was willing to trade some velocity for bullet weight, but with the .303 and a mere 170/180 bullet I was not willing to lose much below 2500 fps, it is after all a modern rifle - not a musket.
I found that (the numbers are from my rough notes and rounded off for simple reference) at 2350 to 2450 fps I had very good accuracy and a easy to load cartridge. The trajectory was acceptable for my intended use.
You have to draw some parameters when doing these builds, I do not recall and do not seem to have kept notes on my goal, but it would have been something like 2500 fps with a bullet of 170 to 180 gr and a accumulative above and below PBR of no more than 7 " out to about 200 m
Why I said that below 16 inch you my want to consider the 357 Mag (tongue in cheek), is that below 16 inch barrel I could just not obtain all my requirements. I found that below 16 inch the returns were just too far from the original goal.
You may decide that your PBR range needs are very different.

I just looked on my phone now,(forgot I have cheat sheets on phone)The 303 is zero at 150 m and 2.3 inch high at 100 m. Note sais 4 to 5 fingers up at 200 - aim low out to 150. (Yes I am a bush mechanic shooter, I mix between meter and foot, fingers, hands and inch's - the notes are for me and methods work for me)