Chinese presence in Africa.

**Doublefeed** · 12-03-2012, 14:25

Originally Posted by camouflage762

Back to the OP please or thread is locked.

That being said...

Originally Posted by 414gates

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=29644

Good read, BTW.

**Wanderin' Zero** · 12-03-2012, 14:33

Originally Posted by Messor

Correct WZ, a good debate helps everybody, we should just try not to get too worked up about certain things and then say nasty things like "How does one enlighten the willfully blind?" , anyway, I enjoy your inputs.

Messor, thank you. I did not mean to be nasty with the above but simply reflect, in a more commonly understood way, Milton's reference to God demanding day labour, light denied (Milton was blind when he created "Paradise Lost"). It is a genuine response - and sincerely meant - to doublefeed's statement that he knows all he needs to know and that it is all fact and the futility of any meaningful response by myself in the face of that.

Camo, I will now my hold peace and return to the OP.

**Doublefeed** · 12-03-2012, 15:42

Anyway-Right now there is no NATO presence in Africa, w/the exception of the occasional joint exercise. AFRICOM is ramping things up as there will be a shift in focus to SSA once the Iraq and OEF situations conclude. Its no big secret they are already heavily involved in things around the horn.

I just met w/a S.African-born officer serving in a foreign military who informs me of these logistical hubs the Chinese have/are setting up all along the W coast of the continent; presumably to get raw materials on to ships. I also know there are western firms right now erecting large infrastructure projects in some of these same W African nations mentioned in here previously by Andrew Leigh(I was offered a job on one of them). Since supposedly there is no Chinese military presence to speak of right now, one wonders what this landscape will be in say, 5-10 years as the western presence in SSA increases, to include military presence like NATO and AFRICOM.

What does anyone in here predict the temperature will be once a build-up of interest increases? I'm inclined to think direct hostilities won't come into play, but there will be a lot of brush-fire proxy wars and espionage. Any thoughts?

BTW- I just started going through this. A fairly current paper on the topic. Note the authors.

http://www.uneca.org/eca_programmes/...iew_report.pdf

**Wanderin' Zero** · 12-03-2012, 16:17

Originally Posted by Doublefeed

but there will be a lot of brush-fire proxy wars

I think we've seen that movie before? :-/

My sense is that the cultural gap between the Chinese and the Africans is much smaller than between Africans and the West. To that extent - and by virtue of their existing involvement - it looks to me like the Chinese have a head-start. I think it's going to be hard for the West to close that gap. Also, there are Chinese traders (mom& pop upwards) on every corner. They're not always terribly welcome but its a footprint (intel and commercial, if nothing else) I'm not sure the West is easily going to replicate. What does it mean? Not sure but my guess that on the whole the Chinese are possibly going to hold more influence over the populace and political currents than the West is.

**414gates** · 12-03-2012, 17:27

Originally Posted by Doublefeed

What does anyone in here predict the temperature will be once a build-up of interest increases? I'm inclined to think direct hostilities won't come into play, but there will be a lot of brush-fire proxy wars and espionage. Any thoughts?

None. The Chinese have not embarked on military conflict to gain economic advantage. This is historically speaking. And presently, the indications are they are not gearing up to deploy 265 000 soldiers in 140 countries worldwide. The 'conflict' will be economic. No need to gather up the whole python when you can just take off it's head. The Chinese are very good at espionage, having siphoned the blueprints for an aircraft carrier from the US, and building it on a lake in China before the US floated theirs. It made for a funny story at the time.

We have been conditioned to generalise, by those governments to whom our lives can be sacrificed for profit. Unfortunately, the Chinese are cast as 'them'. IMO - 'Us and them, ugh-ugh.'

It's been in the best interests of the West to keep Africa in permanent conflict, and to retard economic development for their own profit. Hopefully the Chinese factor can put an end to that.

In the generations to come, maybe someone will do a study on who benefitted African development, or initiated the African renaissance in the 21st century, the West or the East.

**Doublefeed** · 12-03-2012, 18:04

Originally Posted by 414gates

Chinese have not embarked on military conflict to gain economic advantage

FYI- A proxy war is one that does not involve direct engagement between belligerents.

"… proxy conflicts are those in which great-power hostilities are expressed through client states rather than between great powers themselves. These proxy conflicts occur between nations that disagree over specific issues but do not wish to engage in direct conflict …"

Taken from:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/ssq/2011/winter/yeisley.pdf

...Another good essay BTW.

Also- I was only aware of a single, recently commissioned Chinese carrier that was sold to them by the Russians, then refitted. I think its underway but going through sea trials right now. I'm fairly certain it's their only carrier. Am I missing something?

**Wanderin' Zero** · 12-03-2012, 18:41

Originally Posted by Doublefeed

"… proxy conflicts are those in which great-power hostilities are expressed through client states rather than between great powers themselves. These proxy conflicts occur between nations that disagree over specific issues but do not wish to engage in direct conflict …"

Many of the lads on this forum have played the role of proxy back in the 1970s and 1980s. Hence my earlier comment.

Originally Posted by Doublefeed

I was only aware of a single, recently commissioned Chinese carrier that was sold to them by the Russians, then refitted. I think its underway but going through sea trials right now. I'm fairly certain it's their only carrier.

Same here. But not sure if it has got to the sea trial stage yet.

**414gates** · 12-03-2012, 18:42

Some years ago, they built a carrier in a lake. It was never floated on the ocean, because it can't leave the lake. It was the exact carrier the US was building, just the Chinese built it first.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11...craft_carrier/ , just one related story, I'm not sure if ithis was the copy of the top secret US carrier at the time. There's a lot to Google on.

**Wanderin' Zero** · 12-03-2012, 18:48

Originally Posted by 414gates

Some years ago, they built a carrier in a lake. It was never floated on the ocean, because it can't leave the lake. It was the exact carrier the US was building, just the Chinese built it first.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11...craft_carrier/ , just one related story, I'm not sure if ithis was the copy of the top secret US carrier at the time. There's a lot to Google on.

A flying aircraft carrier?

**Doublefeed** · 12-03-2012, 20:58

Originally Posted by 414gates

Some years ago, they built a carrier in a lake. It was never floated on the ocean, because it can't leave the lake. It was the exact carrier the US was building, just the Chinese built it first.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11...craft_carrier/ , just one related story, I'm not sure if ithis was the copy of the top secret US carrier at the time. There's a lot to Google on.

That's pretty interesting. My 1st guess would be some kind of R&D program for the future PRC carrier fleet. If they were smart(and they are) the flight deck would be operational for training future naval aviators. If I had to bet on it, that's what it is. The article is dated 2006. The USS Nimitz was commissioned in '75. So they've had a carrier simulator(or whatever it is)on a lake since before 1975 in anticipation of a carrier program that took over 35 years to field?